Are mumsneters TERFs

[ChedderGorgeous]

I started a thread on the new taskmaster line up here. This greatly angered a taskmaster fb group who screenshot the conversation and agreed all mumsnetters were TERFs. AIBU to suggest this isn't the general perception of others when you have mentioned mumsnet ? Ps. I still haven't heard of John Robins !

Anyone can dress and live how they like. Have any hobbies they like. They must use the toilets and sports depending on their anatomy, which is irrelevant to their personality.

How sexust can you be to say if a girl wears trousers and plays football she must be a trans boy. And take drugs to suppress her development so she can never have an orgasm and will die earlier, have a lowered IQ and probably mobility problems related to bone density.

Taskmaster is not in the least offensive and you can watch old episodes on Netflix. It's generally funny and entertaining celebs doing daft activities with far too much competitiveness considering the 'prizes' are crap. Older children and teens will like it too.

I have no idea what the TM/FB/MN triangle is about.

@ChedderGorgeous can you come back and clarify?

👋 I am.

Personally I do believe in women-only spaces. I just also think that trans women are (a type of) women, so I'm happy to include them. I say this as a domestic abuse survivor. If your problem is with men pretending to be trans in order to abuse women, then that's a different thing.

So how would you propose we differentiate between the two?

@TippiHedrin How does one tell the difference between a genuine transwomen, and one who is pretending? You didn't answer that.

And personally, it's irrelevant. No biological male, even with the purest of intentions no matter how they identify, should be in women's spaces and sports. If my brother, as lovely as he is, woke up tomorrow and declared himself trans, I'd still not want him in women's spaces, as his mere presence may make women uncomfortable.

It doesn't matter if you or I are comfortable, we don't get to give away that consent on behalf of other women.

I could! You could not though, it takes the ability to debate with backed up facts which unfortunately you don’t seem to possess. Honestly I’m always impressed with people like yourself, just accept anything without questioning. Must be a very peaceful existence not to think very hard or have other people give you the answers however illogical they are.

Still trying I see. Moved on to personal insults now. I wonder what's next?

I’m sorry you feel personally insulted, you’re more than welcome to report my post if you feel that’s the case. I’m not offended.

How does one tell the difference between a genuine transwomen, and one who is pretending? You didn't answer that.

Wasn't there a LibDems MP who claimed to be able to look through the eyes and see the gendered soul within?

The trouble is this is where many of us were even we first started thinking about this. I couldnt believe there wasn’t a compromise or a third way but the more I thought about it, the more I realised that there wasn’t

if we accept that it is only someone’s inner feelings that define what sex they identify with then how can we possibly know if a TW is one of the vanishingly small number of men with gender dysphoria or a man who dresses like a woman because it gives him an erection or a man who doesn’t present in a stereotypical typical feminine way But still believes they are female or a man who is saying they are to access women. It is self ID that TRA want so how on Earth can anyone quantify whther someone else’s inner feelings are right or wrong? It’s impossible

and yet we’re expected to change everything and accommodate men in single sex spaces because they say they’re women

it’s bonkers

You could not though, it takes the ability to debate with backed up facts which unfortunately you don’t seem to possess

Which bit did you miss where they said they just don't see why they should debate?
No one owes you "a debate."

Not all of us, but a very vocal minority are TERFs

I've chosen not to engage with some posters just looking for a pile-on.

It's not just about single sex spaces and - sports. I'm mostly in favour of those. It's also about dignity (which has been mentioned here by many) and respect for trans people. To live meaningfully in the gender you identify as is more than just lipstick and a pair of heels. But engaging with that would require nuance and thought which most people here just don't seem to have the patience/ability for.

As asked here are the posts (so far in this fast moving thread) I would consider transphobic, including ones that reduce identifying as trans to 'make believe', 'religion', 'ideology', 'personal beliefs' etc. And the "I have a problem with them all" post has been deleted.

CurlsnSunshinetime4tea · Today 14:13
I don’t care what people think of me, men can’t become women by donning lipstick.

VickyEadieofThigh · Today 15:30
I do not believe a person can change sex or that males declaring themselves women magically change into women.

Fordian · Today 15:37
Most people who 'don't care' haven't actually thought through the consequences, and would be shocked if they understood how many of the rights they take for granted are being eroded by fetishistic men.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 15:38
I do accept people are born into the wrong bodies
You "believe" not "accept". It's your view based on your ideology. Not mine.

bellinisurge · Today 15:38
Do you think men should be in women's single sex spaces and sports. Because that's the issue. Not "can men wear dresses and eyeliner"

ElevenSeven · Today 15:39
I will never accept men in women’s spaces
And yes, they are men, no matter how they ‘transition’.

sunflowerpinks · Today 15:40
See, I don't actually know what a 'tramswoman' is.
I just know that there are males/men and females/women, based purely on their chromosomes

CharlotteRumpling · Today 15:41
I don't believe that any of this makes them change sex. Just like I don't believe in God, but I think religious people have the right to follow their religions, and be free of discrimination. What they can't then do is insist that I join their religion.

Fordian · Today 15:42
The scale of the male entitlement and aggression that followed has certainly TERF'ed me, to the extent I want to see the GRA repealed. It is no longer fit for purpose and has been wantonly and hideously misappropriated by the likes of Stonewall.

I'd go as far as to rescind all GRCs, too.

AInightingale · Today 15:43
Are you a male, just going by your user name. A man who has had his genitals removed and the remaining flesh fashioned into a cavity is not a woman, he has not 'changed sex'. A woman is not a penisless man. I feel that too many men believe this, while they wouldn't for one second believe that a woman with a plastic phallus shoved in her pants, or a piece of flesh fashioned from her arm attached to her groin, is a man either.

Fordian · Today 15:48
But 'womanhood' is not yours to bestow on men.

You don't have that right.

I, and the vast majority of other people on this planet do not want men in female spaces, whatever they look like.

I'd go as far as to suggest that the determined DESIRE by such men to be in these spaces should be the very thing that excludes them.

There is a reason why, in the most recent 'social attitudes survey', the only grouping whose support has fallen is trans.

Because TRA have so overplayed their hand.

AInightingale · Today 16:19
And regardless of body modifications/surgery, you will remain male until you die.

BlueHops · Today 16:22
its man and woman - 2 genders. and its not TERF, its called reality. Stop making stuff up, and stop trying to justify it. There is reality, and someone else's perceived reality (its called fantasy). Do I care how anyone dresses up or feel? no, knock yourselves out if you're an adult. How people get about addressing one's own fantasy in their own world is no one's business, until it impacts someone else.

NalafromtheLionKing · Today 16:24
TERF has an unpleasant ring to it and we really don’t need a woke label for a woman who understands basic biology and hasn’t been brainwashed into believing something slightly ridiculous.

OneTC · Today 16:28
It seems to me the most transphobic position is that of being trans, most everyone else seems to not give a fuck about them.

If you dress like a lady or a bloke I don't know why you can't just be proud of that.

All other forms of prejudice require me to believe something that isn't true about a group of people but the only way I can be non prejudiced about TWAW people is to believe something about them that isn't true

SpeedyDrama · Today 16:32e
Again, once anyone can explain how trans women are actually women outside of biology or personal beliefs, perhaps we can all move forward.

SpeedyDrama · Today 16:44
The question has been asked a few times and you’ve manage to post plenty in the meantime including the name calling. If you know the answer then share and out all this awful ‘transphobia’ to rest. But I suspect the answer is ‘if someone says they’re a woman then they are’, which of course brings up back to personal beliefs rather than anything that can be substantiated.

It’s a bit like when someone says ‘there is a god and you should believe if you don’t want to go to hell’. And when you say, ‘sure just show me the evidence’ and they reply ‘well I’ve had very real experiences that makes me believe’. Ok good for you, but that’s not going to make me a believer just because it’s happening in your mind.

lifeturnsonadime · Today 16:48
How can a transwoman be a type of woman? They are male, they are non gender conforming males?

No woman has the right to give away single sex spaces to a subset of males, even if they 'identify' (whatever the fuck that means) as women.

Let's engage the experts and try and work out an inclusive and supportive policy!

The experts have been working on this for years, and it results in women being sexually assulted in prisons and in 'single sex' hospital wards.

There are no experts on this issue, and no way to include men and not compromise the saftey and dignity of women and girls.

How many more women should suffer trying to make supportive policies work?

For me MN is one of the only spaces I’ve seen where you can have a holistic debate about transgender. There are also stories of families that have to deal with it and it’s super insightful. There are also open conversations about some of the treatments.

People hate truth, and then come up with a term to label everyone that goes against their believes.

At the end of the day, people are people, regardless of the gender you want to choose, outside of your biological sex.

Im sorry to also add that there are also still lots of feminist issues to tackle and intersectional feminism, no matter the shape or form, is complex for those with the lived experience.

No, but if I wade into a discussion forum (big clue there) with accusations of say, homophobia on said forum, I shouldn't be surprised when members ask for examples.

I personally wouldn't in the first place if I couldn't back it up, or at least give some attempt at intelligent debate. After all, it's me making the accusations. I also wouldn't keep blowing hot air making myself looking like a tit.

But that's just me.

@meowie the conflict here, I think, is that objections to "gender" come from a position that sees gender as a tool to restrict women (and men) and to control them. From women who have had direct experience of being discriminated against because of the expectations placed upon them by the gender roles and stereotypes within their society. So, as a feminist, there is a desire to break down gender and fight against anything that reifies those gender roles as real, more important and relevant than someone's physical sex.

So cut a long story short.

Anyone who wholly believes in biological reality and that single sex spaces should only be for females is a transphobe.

I was the last on your list, just want to pick this a part, is it the fact that I said that trans women are male (biologically factually correct) that makes me hate or fear transpeople or is it the fact that I don't think that identity has meaning (at least not in the sense that it should override women's rights) that makes me a transphobe?

Does everyone named here want to club together to buy @meowie a biology textbook?

I would agree with this.

@meowie

It's not just about single sex spaces and - sports. I'm mostly in favour of those. It's also about dignity (which has been mentioned here by many) and respect for trans people. To live meaningfully in the gender you identify as is more than just lipstick and a pair of heels.

Do you mean you do want single sex spaces and sports

How would a trans person live meaningfully if they do not have access to those spaces? Can you say more on what that is

Absolutely this

lifeturnsonadime
How can a transwoman be a type of woman? They are male, they are non gender conforming males?

No woman has the right to give away single sex spaces to a subset of males, even if they 'identify' (whatever the fuck that means) as women.

If you really can't see what is offensive about this post, it's hardly worth me spelling it out for you.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · Today 17:17

+ + Let's engage the experts and try and work out an inclusive and supportive policy! + +

The experts have been working on this for years, and it results in women being sexually assulted in prisons and in 'single sex' hospital wards.

Well, the unisex toilet / changing room solution has been proffered, but it's shouted down by TW as "dangerous." The reasoning is never given.

TRAs use TERF to mean "People who don't agree to everything we demand," and is usually accompanied by histrionic accusations of genocide and erasure of their very existence. Also, horrible threats of assault, rape and even murder.

It's not difficult to see which side has the moral high ground.