AIBU to be upset - comment at Ru Paul’s Drag Con …

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Before anyone has a moan about drag in general, please don’t, the post isn’t about that…

I’m a fan of Ru Paul’s drag race UK. I love seeing all the effort that goes into the make-up looks and I admire the creativity of the outfits. I also enjoy the behind the scenes footage of the contestants as they make friends and share their experiences.

DP got tickets to Drag Con for Xmas - an event which is a combination of shows, catwalks and meet/greet. I hadn’t asked to go and I was a bit reluctant. I’m fairly shy.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, we went and it was fun. As we were leaving I spoke to one of the performers and gushingly said how amazing I thought their dance routine/song had been (the only person I’d spoken to during the event except DP)… they really are incredibly talented. Their reply seemed very heartfelt and was something like… ‘oh that’s so sweet of you, thank you’, followed by an air kiss/hug… then they said ‘get your hair done’, as if under their breath but really very much out loud, to a group of people nearby who’d seen us speak and clearly knew the comment was about me. It was greeted with much laughter.

I felt (and still feel) so upset. Partly because it was a bit of a shock but partly because I know it’s true. I’m relatively pretty but I’m just a mum, wasn’t wearing jeans/anything really scruffy and I’m not particularly polished (and my hair probably could do with being done!).

I turned away so nobody could see and promptly burst into tears. Now I can’t stop thinking about it and feel so upset.

YABU - why be upset - it’s just a stranger making some throw away remarks to have a laugh, brush it off, it’s funny (and you’ve just said it’s true!)

YANBU - I’d be upset too

Oh dear, I know many teachers and many of them would be very disappointing to you Prawn because I don’t think I know one personally who isn’t more than a bit 🤨 about the whole current trans ideology. Schools have been making a lot of connections between self ID and ASD/vulnerable kids before a lot of others have finally put the dots together. Lots of safeguarding issues, why do you think the government recently made a policy about it? But again, not the point of the thread…

Sorry but I think it's absolutely wrong regardless of their beliefs for teachers to be spewing discredited research about trans women being perverts and fetishists. How unbelievably awful for any pupil in their class worried about their gender to have to hear such alienating hateful nonsense, regardless of where you think their feelings come from.

As for government policy, why do I think the reactionary right wing last gasp Tory government facing an imminent election that they're likely to lose might make a desperate last bid to appeal to people who read and believe Daily Mail headlines? Hmm let me think

And in point of fact, the government haven't made a policy, they've issued draft guidance which is a) a draft b) not legally binding and c) they've been advised by their own legal team is in breach of equality law and schools who implement it could be successfully sued. Oops.

Teachers don’t share their gender critical beliefs with teenagers. They have actual teaching to be getting on with, which is already difficult enough. Any child who does raise gender issues are dealt with as delicately as possible - mostly because as I previously said, they often already vulnerable students who are ND or are suspected of having abusive home lives. Teachers know far more about teenagers and how to manage emotional disregulation more than an angry TRA on the internet with an actual agenda of telling them what they want to hear rather than getting to the bottom of what’s actually causing them mental distress.

Even if the Tories are out soon, Labour aren’t going to undo any policies they put in place. They know which way the wind is blowing, especially in schools. They’re only appeasing now so they have a better chance of getting into government at the end of the year. Nothing to do with DM headlines, a lot has been in motion for a while now and it’s not all down to conservative values.

You might find the way the wind blows on mumsnet - which seems utterly obsessed with the issue - does not reflect the prevailing winds of the country in general.

I’m rarely on MN, I don’t take my information from echo chambers on social media.

Nor do I.

That famously underprivileged group: men, who get paid to mock women.

Such an ignorant statement. Drag has long been an outlet for not just any men, but gay men. Men who have been historically marginalized by society, and still are. The history of drag is intertwined with the stories of men who have been jailed, beaten, ostracised, shamed in national newspapers, kicked out of their homes, lost their livelihoods, and are still now the world over living in fear for their lives.

Drag allows people to express themselves. To feel fabulous, to get applause and yes sometimes to feel sexy. I enjoy feeling sexy too. It's not a bad thing.

I spend most weekends on the LGBT+ 'scene'. Among Drag artists of all genders, trans people of all shades, and I am a biological woman. I've never felt unsafe, I've never felt mocked. It's not about me. It's about them. THEY want to feel good about THEMSELVES. And I'm so glad they've found a way to do that.

Seriously, watch Paris is Burning. Listen to the stories of Queens on DR.

Men are men. Yes gay men have been marginalised but in comparison to girls and women? Both past and current times? Not even comparable. When it comes to men using, abusing, mocking, degrading women to make themselves feel better - sexuality isn’t a factor. It’s just men being men, and there will always be women like ones on here who will make excuses for them simply to be liked. ‘If I tell them they’re brilliant they won’t focus their cruelty on me’. Evidently they still do.

Males using female existence to feel good about themselves. Tale as old as time.

It is still literally illegal to be gay in countries in the world today. It was criminalised in Britain within living memory. Women and girls certainly have a long history of oppression but it's never been illegal for them to exist.

Jesus Christ are you serious? You know as you were simply typing that out, several young girls - children - in other countries were taken from their homes, forced to marry a much older man, are being raped, forced into pregnancy that may kill them, used and abused for simply being female? Do not dare say female oppression has still allowed them to ‘exists’. Up until very recent history even in this country, women were not legal entities of their own. They either belonged to their father or their husband. If their husband died they were left destitute because women couldn’t own anything. My own mother was ostracised in the 90s for getting a divorce, it was still more respectable to be married to an abusive man than to be a single mother. As horrific as it is/was - you can hide being gay, you cannot hide your femalehood. It’s used against you from the second you’re born. And even now simply being born female means that life doesn’t last very long. You don’t get the choice to exist simply for being born a girl, just thrown in a river and hope your parents get it right next time.

I will always recognise that the gay community have (and still do, especially from within these days) face horrific discrimination and abuse. But it’s absolutely not comparable to what girls and women can never escape from.

It is still literally illegal to be gay in countries in the world today.
How does doing a drag act in the UK help them?
It was criminalised in Britain within living memory.
You mean nearly 60 years ago. Marital rape was made illegal only 24 years ago.
Women and girls certainly have a long history of oppression but it's never been illegal for them to exist.
The oppression is ongoing. Oppression by men. Except that some men (trans, drag, etc) are now trying to play top trumps and make out that their oppression is worse than women's.

It is exactly womenface They are dressing up and mocking a minority group. It is absolutely a parody of being female - that's the whole bloody point.

Of course there is a historical aspect because women were not allowed to act so men had to take female stage roles. The entire origin is rooted in misogyny and discrimination.

I'm from a mixed race family and I find it more offensive because as least people recognise how appalling blackface is whereas taking the piss out of women is still actively celebrated. The double standard is disgusting.

So because you perceive gay men to not be quite as oppressed as women, you can have absolutely no sympathy? You refuse to believe that maybe there is a deeper meaning behind the performances than making it all about you? To listen to people's stories and reasons. There's a good article in Vice (I think) which interviews DQ and asks them why they do it. Mocking women does NOT come up. Expression does. Equality does. Liking shiny things does.

Drag queens do not wear sparkly things and heels because they think women like that. It's because THEY like sparkles and heels and having a feminine silhouette.

It baffles me that you think they'd go to that much effort and spend all that time making themselves up just to giggle at themselves about silly girls. They're just trying to look good - FOR THEM. Do you think a dress would look as good on a body with no curves?? (again, ignoring the incredibly diverse current scene which doesn't conform to traditional looks so much)

"The trans thing"

Is this entire forum powered by transphobia or something? **

Exactly this.

The history of drag isn't anything to do with straight male actors taking female roles in plays. That's an entirely separate phenomena which came about for an entirely different set of reasons.

Oh yes it's entirely different wearing womens clothes, putting make up on, pretending to be women...

Oh wait....

I agree with those who say it was part of the act. I once went on a hen night where there was a drag queen who referred several times to the bride's "lank hair". The bride took it in the spirit it was said and wasn't offended at all. As someone who says they're a fan of drag race, I'm surprised you were!

This just boils down to good old fashioned prejudice against men who don't conform to gender stereotypes, doesn't it. Clothes and make-up belong to the person wearing them, they aren't "women's" fundamentally.

it’s funny how drag’s appropriation of women has now become really vicious in a lot of cases with the references to fish, periods and even abortion-based names - and there’s often an undercurrent of resentment and really wanting to hurt women. I would not have liked this at all OP.

By 'lots of cases' do you mean ONE performer that you've heard of with a tasteless name and a term which is going out of fashion, (and was actually respectfully discussed by a woman on DR talking about how she doesn't like it)

Drag makes me very uncomfortable now and I think it’s because it’s got mixed up with the trans thing and is anti-woman and we’re supposed to see a man in drag as a “she”. Traditionally, it was for entertainment and a huge part of the jokes and schtick was that everyone including the performer knew it was a man.

Drag has ALWAYS been mixed up with the "trans thing". Trans people have always existed, especially in the LGBT scene, which is where you'd usually find drag queens.

Male drag queens KNOW they are men. We know they're men. Everybody knows they're men. (At least the ones that are men, unlike say Victoria Scone. Here's Bianca Del Rio telling us that he KNOWS he's a man!

Honestly. Do some actual research. By which I mean listen to DRAG QUEENS if you want to learn about DRAG QUEENS. Not people who have an agenda against them!

Using this forum to learn anything about LGBTQ people is like me popping in to the Men and Motors forum to learn about ze women.

I can't abide drag, as it goes, but I had a mate who was a drag queen and if you actually knew anything about them, this is how they are. Lily Savage was the same! It's a bit odd that you reacted to it by bursting into tears though?! Are you a naturally sensitive person?

I've heard everything now.

Drag parodies women and openly mocks us. It's blatantly misogynistic yet when we call it out its prejudice against men? Hilarious!

That really has to be the most blinkered and ignorant comment I've read on here in years.

Crack on. Not worth my time.

Is this entire forum powered by transphobia or something?**

By the "trans thing" I mean the trend for gender ideology in recent years, which has resulted in a large amount of harm to children and young people and is threatening the rights of women and gay people to actually be defined as categories. The explosion of transactivism and the way it has been pushed by Stonewall mean it has grown to encompass drag, as explained by PPs. That directly makes me now dislike drag more than I did before - not because of transphobia but because of the idea that a man in drag is a woman or a "she" - instead of a performer having a bit of fun for an adult audience with both him and his audience fully understanding that he's a man.

It's not transphobia to be able to see that that is untrue and that many modern drag acts are very misogynistic. Drag has been pulled out of gay clubs and been made into an entertainment for kids and the general public so we now have men reinforcing a hyper-sexualised, stereotypes and misogynistic idea of women to kids. That's not OK IMO, it's an adult art form and also now more pornified that is once was.

It's not transphobic to find gender ideology to be sexist, homophobic and based on zero evidence. That's my view and yes such perfectly rational views can be expressed here, so people come to discuss them.

Drag parodies women and openly mocks us

In YOUR opinion.