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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it's tragic if Michael Jackson was indeed innocent

1000 replies

pregahes · 08/01/2024 21:53

It's a real shame for someone who created incredible music to have their legacy at risk. It’s just tragic, considering the impact his music had on so many. It's tragic either way, if he's guilty for the victims and if he's innocent for himself.

I'm a huge fan and at one point t thought he was guilty but kore recently change of heart. I think there would be more victims if he weee in fact guilty. Somethings doesnt add up.

It's tragic

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
MaryDroppings · 09/01/2024 21:25

Mirabai · 09/01/2024 21:14

In the words of the head of Children in Need when asked why he never allowed Savile to take part. He replied: “I don’t need a criminal conviction to tell me Savile should not be around children”. You apparently would not have been so wise.

Have you watched Finding Neverland?

You mean Leaving Neverland? Is that the one where one of the accusers family's was served with a $24m lawsuit because the family business was in trouble just 14 days after they filed a lawsuit against the Jackson estate? You know, the ones who needed to find lots of money very fast because his family were up shit creek and about to be sued for millions?

tachetastic · 09/01/2024 21:27

Mirabai · 09/01/2024 21:14

In the words of the head of Children in Need when asked why he never allowed Savile to take part. He replied: “I don’t need a criminal conviction to tell me Savile should not be around children”. You apparently would not have been so wise.

Have you watched Finding Neverland?

Actually I said he should never have been employed on TV and I wouldn't have wanted my children in the same postcode of him (and by extension other people's children). Not so inconsistent with the head of Children in Need.

Have you read my comments?

KarenNotAKaren · 09/01/2024 21:29

MaryDroppings · 09/01/2024 21:25

You mean Leaving Neverland? Is that the one where one of the accusers family's was served with a $24m lawsuit because the family business was in trouble just 14 days after they filed a lawsuit against the Jackson estate? You know, the ones who needed to find lots of money very fast because his family were up shit creek and about to be sued for millions?

Do you have proof that Wade Robson was served with a lawsuit? By who and for what? Did he lose? What happened to this elusive lawsuit?

Even if he was - what on EARTH has that got to with Jackson? Does it mean Robson wasn’t sexually abused? Also - Wade Robson didn’t get paid for Leaving Neverland. Certainly not £24m!

KarenNotAKaren · 09/01/2024 21:31

I’ve googled and I can’t find a single thing about Wade Robson being sued after (or was it before? You’ve had 2 different stories) filing a lawsuit against Jackson’s estate. Just some superfan Reddit page.

Also @MaryDroppings do you accept this documentary lied about children not going to the police? Why would it do that?

Mirabai · 09/01/2024 21:32

MaryDroppings · 09/01/2024 21:25

You mean Leaving Neverland? Is that the one where one of the accusers family's was served with a $24m lawsuit because the family business was in trouble just 14 days after they filed a lawsuit against the Jackson estate? You know, the ones who needed to find lots of money very fast because his family were up shit creek and about to be sued for millions?

I mean Finding Neverland, the film for which neither Safechuck nor Robson, were paid. Who have not thus far never received any compensation. Their lawsuits against MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures for the corporate facilitation of child sexual abuse are coming to trial soon.

nolongersurprised · 09/01/2024 21:34

MaryDroppings · 09/01/2024 21:25

You mean Leaving Neverland? Is that the one where one of the accusers family's was served with a $24m lawsuit because the family business was in trouble just 14 days after they filed a lawsuit against the Jackson estate? You know, the ones who needed to find lots of money very fast because his family were up shit creek and about to be sued for millions?

Let’s go back to basics. It’s easy to obfuscate the issue by nitpicking about the victims’ actions/accusations. It’s what happens in trials, the victims are on trial themselves.

These accusations arise from MJ spending time with young boys, travelling with them, sleeping with them. Adult men who do that are paedophiles. there is no plausible alternative explanation for MJ doing this other than him being a paedophile.

KarenNotAKaren · 09/01/2024 21:35

@Mirabai for the sake of accuracy the documentary is Leaving Neverland. Finding Neverland is a film about JM Barrie starring Johnny Depp

Mirabai · 09/01/2024 21:36

tachetastic · 09/01/2024 21:27

Actually I said he should never have been employed on TV and I wouldn't have wanted my children in the same postcode of him (and by extension other people's children). Not so inconsistent with the head of Children in Need.

Have you read my comments?

No because while you wouldn’t have let your kids sit on his knee, you said he was innocent, if he’s innocent there’s no reason for him not to work in TV or to prevent him working with kids. You can’t have it both ways.

Equally iupg is merely a legal instrument in a trial to the effect that the burden of the proof lies with the prosecution. It has has no meaningful application outside of a court. You wouldn’t want to speculate in the media about guilt because you could be slapped with a libel suit. But everybody is entirely free to form their own personal conclusions irrespective of the outcome of criminal proceedings.

Mirabai · 09/01/2024 21:37

KarenNotAKaren · 09/01/2024 21:35

@Mirabai for the sake of accuracy the documentary is Leaving Neverland. Finding Neverland is a film about JM Barrie starring Johnny Depp

My apologies it’s been a long day!

KarenNotAKaren · 09/01/2024 21:37

Mirabai · 09/01/2024 21:32

I mean Finding Neverland, the film for which neither Safechuck nor Robson, were paid. Who have not thus far never received any compensation. Their lawsuits against MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures for the corporate facilitation of child sexual abuse are coming to trial soon.

I’m SO happy that their cases are going to trial and even the MJ apologists should be - we all should be! I’ll tell you why - it could set a precedent that makes ALL organisation accountable for the safeguarding of children. Right now it’s just about schools, churches, scout groups etc but if they win this trial it could mean that any organisation dealing with minors has a safeguarding duty. And I think we can all agree that a record company that allows it’s stars to ah e little boys sleeping in his bed SHOULD be held accountable

tachetastic · 09/01/2024 21:37

KarenNotAKaren · 09/01/2024 21:35

@Mirabai for the sake of accuracy the documentary is Leaving Neverland. Finding Neverland is a film about JM Barrie starring Johnny Depp

Why let accuracy get in the way? This thread is in typical Mumsnet full flow........

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 09/01/2024 21:45

So the latest batch of paedophile apologists think that if nothing was ever proven beyond reasonable doubt in court, then we shouldn’t even talk about what happened?

We shouldn’t even discuss the concepts of grooming and how a rich and famous man can groom all those around him into accepting his serial abuse of children in plain sight?

We shouldn’t establish that there are recognisable patterns of behaviour, shared by other predators too, and enlighten other people as to what those patterns look like - people who in their ignorance or naïveté have failed to spot those patterns and join up the dots themselves?

Who gains from this kind of discussion being stifled?

Who would prefer it if as few people as possible understood what grooming looks like and how many different forms it can take?

Who benefits from having the voices of people who say they were victims of CSA silenced? From normalising disbelief of their testimony?

And who loses out when child protection and safeguarding is undermined through ignorance and lack of understanding of how grooming works?

Who is put in more danger if the adults around them are naive about the risks that other adults may present, because these conversations don’t happen?

They’re not difficult questions to answer.

And maybe the answers will help you (and others) see whose side you’re really on when you say these sort of discussions shouldn’t happen.

Disgusting indeed.

KarenNotAKaren · 09/01/2024 21:47

So as it turns out Michael met one of his victims Jordan Chandler because Jackson’s car broke down and the rental car place he then went to was owned by Jordan’s stepfather. Who called his wife and said “Bring Jordan down, his hero is here”. Fair enough. Then Jackson took the its number and continuously called, like he was dating him. A little boy.

Now how the fucking hell can anyone defend him behaving like that? What kind of person takes a child fan’s number to call them and cultivate a relationship? Why not just meet the lad have a photo and be on your way?

KarenNotAKaren · 09/01/2024 21:49

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 09/01/2024 21:45

So the latest batch of paedophile apologists think that if nothing was ever proven beyond reasonable doubt in court, then we shouldn’t even talk about what happened?

We shouldn’t even discuss the concepts of grooming and how a rich and famous man can groom all those around him into accepting his serial abuse of children in plain sight?

We shouldn’t establish that there are recognisable patterns of behaviour, shared by other predators too, and enlighten other people as to what those patterns look like - people who in their ignorance or naïveté have failed to spot those patterns and join up the dots themselves?

Who gains from this kind of discussion being stifled?

Who would prefer it if as few people as possible understood what grooming looks like and how many different forms it can take?

Who benefits from having the voices of people who say they were victims of CSA silenced? From normalising disbelief of their testimony?

And who loses out when child protection and safeguarding is undermined through ignorance and lack of understanding of how grooming works?

Who is put in more danger if the adults around them are naive about the risks that other adults may present, because these conversations don’t happen?

They’re not difficult questions to answer.

And maybe the answers will help you (and others) see whose side you’re really on when you say these sort of discussions shouldn’t happen.

Disgusting indeed.

Great post.

As a survivor of CSA, I say to the Jackson defenders: it’s because of YOU that people like me don’t come forward. You hate people like me and adore my abuser - you must do, otherwise you wouldn’t advocate for pedophiles and try to destroy survivors. Are you proud of yourselves?

Mirabai · 09/01/2024 21:52

tachetastic · 09/01/2024 21:37

Why let accuracy get in the way? This thread is in typical Mumsnet full flow........

I have watched it very carefully and have great respect for those two men. Have you?

pregahes · 09/01/2024 21:55

To address some questions in here...

Would I allow my kids to sleep with a man - NEVER!!!

Have I seen leaving never land...yes! I used to follow wade robson way back when he was height of his fame and I've followed his story from when he claimed nothing f happened til now and I just don't find him credible...because he said too many times nothing happened. It just seems odd to me but then the other hand why wouldn't celebrity choreography lie and damage his reputation??!

Honestly, as my original post says I don't have a clue whether he is guilty or innocent. If my life depended on it I'd probably be dead, I'm 50/50 - I'm not proclaiming his innocence or guilt. The point I made is that either way it's a tragedy

OP posts:
KarenNotAKaren · 09/01/2024 21:55

Robson and Safechuck are amazing for overcoming what they have and helping others to do the same. Sadly they aren’t victimy enough for some people which is very disturbing. No wonder nonces continue to get away with it when they have an army of deluded dimwits ready to defend them

StopTheQtipWhenTheresResistance · 09/01/2024 21:56

@KarenNotAKaren I would like to hope that has changed but I don't know. That's one thing I am grateful for in the U.K.. Victims need protection, it's hard enough for them to go through the criminal trial process; never mind being destroyed by the media and others.

pregahes · 09/01/2024 21:56

@KarenNotAKaren you make a very good point , whether he is innocent or guilty or sexual abuse, the stuff we saw in plain sight that's proven is disgusting. It's also quite traumatic for the kids to be taken on these trips living the 'high life' from their superstar idol and then be dropped.

OP posts:
Mirabai · 09/01/2024 21:57

Who gains from this kind of discussion being stifled?

The people who want to dance on the floor in the round without feeling guilty.

Itsmychristmasdress · 09/01/2024 21:57

Op what about the evidence such as the pornography and secret rooms? All confirmed by FBI?

KarenNotAKaren · 09/01/2024 21:58

pregahes · 09/01/2024 21:55

To address some questions in here...

Would I allow my kids to sleep with a man - NEVER!!!

Have I seen leaving never land...yes! I used to follow wade robson way back when he was height of his fame and I've followed his story from when he claimed nothing f happened til now and I just don't find him credible...because he said too many times nothing happened. It just seems odd to me but then the other hand why wouldn't celebrity choreography lie and damage his reputation??!

Honestly, as my original post says I don't have a clue whether he is guilty or innocent. If my life depended on it I'd probably be dead, I'm 50/50 - I'm not proclaiming his innocence or guilt. The point I made is that either way it's a tragedy

If you don’t understand why a victim would change their story then I suggest you do some research on the effects of grooming.

I mean it’s blindingly obvious Jackson was a pedophile and it still astonishes me that people are on the fence. If it was your neighbour behaving that way - sleepover with strange little boys, a kids playground in his back yard, parading little boy friends about seeking out pre-pubescent company - would you be on the fence?

BigMandsTattooPortfolio · 09/01/2024 22:00

It's also quite traumatic for the kids to be taken on these trips living the 'high life' from their superstar idol and then be dropped.

Yes, that’s what was so obvious and in plain sight. He was emotionally abusive to these children and that’s at the very least.

StopTheQtipWhenTheresResistance · 09/01/2024 22:00

KarenNotAKaren · 09/01/2024 20:53

PS @tachetastic of you don’t want to be accused of the ‘worst crime’ of pedophilia, don’t act like a massive pedophile then

This is actually a really good point!

KarenNotAKaren · 09/01/2024 22:01

I can’t actually find the answer as to wether USA victims get anonymity. Google is v unhelpful

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