To think it's tragic if Michael Jackson was indeed innocent

[pregahes]

It's a real shame for someone who created incredible music to have their legacy at risk. It’s just tragic, considering the impact his music had on so many. It's tragic either way, if he's guilty for the victims and if he's innocent for himself.

I'm a huge fan and at one point t thought he was guilty but kore recently change of heart. I think there would be more victims if he weee in fact guilty. Somethings doesnt add up.

It's tragic

It’s a really good point that his clues were in his music as he hid in plain sight.

I mean the gratuitous crotch grabbing dancing….

We all know that it is far worse to be accused of sexual assault / rape, than it is to be assaulted / raped. 🙄

The thing is, that as women, we know what men are capable of, because we’re on the receiving end of it. All the time.

I mean, I’m middle-aged now and thankfully invisible, but back in the day, it was a different matter. I’m also one of the ‘lucky’ few, in that I’ve never been raped or seriously sexually assaulted.

But like all women, I’ve been on the receiving end of countless examples of low level unwanted, unwelcome and uninvited sexual attention.

It’s not all men (FFS, that I even have to say that obvious caveat), but it IS all women on the receiving end of it.

We know, because we experience it. That’s why we believe people when they say they’ve experienced X, Y, Z.

Men are not on the receiving end of it. So they have zero idea about exactly how tediously, annoyingly prevalent sub-standard (I’m being kind) male behaviour actually is.

Have a think about that, @DownNative you wont’t …

@Mirabai you are right. I hadn't thought of it but you are.
It is Shit to be falsely accused. I know a couple of people it happened to. But it's far more shit to be a victim and not be believed/keep quiet because you think you won't be believed or will be told you are to blame.

There was a clip in Leaving Neverland where Wade is recreating MJ dance moves for a routine in a shopping mall (I think after he'd stayed with him in Neverland) and there's full out horizon humping on stage, done by a 7 year old... It's grotesque to see, especially now in context

@WingingItSince1973 I believe you too and send hugs your way.

Sending hugs to everyone who suffered sexual abuse and shared their histories on this thread. I believe you.

On the contrary, I have not mistakenly, intentionally, unintentionally, or whatever else you might personally believe, attacked anyone who is a member of Mumsnet and their history of personal abuse in any way, shape or form.

Not at all.

However, YOU along with some posters have deliberately personally attacked myself and had your posts deleted for it.

I would ask you not to make hasty assumptions about me and/my life too. After all, I'm not making ANY assumptions about you and/or your life.

With respect, your own personal experience of abuse has nothing at all to do with this specific case. To argue otherwise is to use the Argument From Anecdote Fallacy, I'm afraid.

"An informal fallacy where personal experience or a singular example is used to support an argument or position instead of compelling evidence. People often gravitate towards using their own experiences or those of people around them as evidence in arguments."

I'm very sorry to hear about your personal experience, genuinely. At the same time, I must point out that it is not relevant to the allegations made against Michael Jackson.

Your experience and case is completely separate from Michael Jackson's experience and case.

Cases should be, and are, decided on their own merits.

With all this in mind, I am very carefully and very deliberately taking my time in responding to various things in the thread.

Let me end this post by asserting that genuine victims of abuse everywhere should be angry with those who make false allegations for whatever reason. Not just those who perpetrate crimes.

And false allegations DO happen. Perhaps some cases that will be mentioned are those you've not heard of before.

Thank you.

@DownNative I think everyone's experience on here of CSA is very relevant because they are more in a position to recognise this behaviour rather than someone like me who has never experienced such serious abuse. Anyone who has unfortunately been through it, will see red flags more than others.

I agree. The look in the men's eyes on the Leaving Neverland documentary. If that was fake they should be Hollywood's top earning actors.

On the contrary, this is not necessarily the case. Indeed, people have been falsely accused of crimes by those believing their personal experience makes them better qualified.

That's why we call it the Argument From Anecdote Fallacy.

And there is also the fallacy relating to personally held biases.

By all means use any logical fallacy! But I will pick up on it. 👍

Save us from random capitalisation and the royal “we”.

@DownNative Anyone with experience in something will be able to recognise the signs more than others. For example, I'm a DV survivor and I can spot the dynamics of an abusive relationship from a mile off. Experience teaches us a lot.

I’m not sure @DownNative is the type to learn from experience, he seems keen to keep digging himself a bigger hole.

Would anyone be interested in continuing the discussion in another thread when this one is full?

I'm always up for some discussion @StopTheQtipWhenTheresResistance

@KarenNotAKaren has started a second thread already. Unless she doesn't want us to migrate there?

I've just seen it so will use her thread to continue chatting.

A person who likes to quote fallacies at people to discredit their argument must surely have heard of the Fallacy fallacy...

And yet people with experience can be wrong about things.

If you're attempting to portray having personal experience in an absolute kind of way, you're deep in the Argument From Anecdote Fallacy.

Yes, but crucially I did not argue that because a person has committed a logical fallacy that means their entire argument is invalid.

My point is the fallacy in question should give the person or anyone else pause for thought as to the validity of their argument as made. 🤷‍♂️

No but you argued that a person who has committed heinous crimes is innocent because you like his songs.

Your entire contribution to this thread has been fingers-in-ear fallacy fallacies. Each time you have quoted those so-called fallacies, you have done exactly that. I suspect you like to consider yourself quite intelligent, maybe more intelligent than most. I don't happen to share that opinion

@DownNative they have more experience than those of us who haven't experienced it though, so are likely to have a lot more insight into the matter.

And that is a Strawman Argument Fallacy right there.

Arguing the case that a person didn't commit sexual abuse is NOT defending the crime of sexual abuse whatsoever.

Nor have I said diddly squat about the music in relation to the topic at hand. It's completely irrelevant. 🤦‍♂️

Trotting out "argument from anecdote fallacy" is a handy way of refusing to accept pattern recognition - something women are far more attuned to than men, generally speaking, because we need to be. It's a way of denying the validity of victims' recognition of predatory behaviour in predators other than their own.