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To think it's tragic if Michael Jackson was indeed innocent

1000 replies

pregahes · 08/01/2024 21:53

It's a real shame for someone who created incredible music to have their legacy at risk. It’s just tragic, considering the impact his music had on so many. It's tragic either way, if he's guilty for the victims and if he's innocent for himself.

I'm a huge fan and at one point t thought he was guilty but kore recently change of heart. I think there would be more victims if he weee in fact guilty. Somethings doesnt add up.

It's tragic

OP posts:
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DownNative · 12/01/2024 12:48

18-21.

To think it's tragic if Michael Jackson was indeed innocent
To think it's tragic if Michael Jackson was indeed innocent
To think it's tragic if Michael Jackson was indeed innocent
To think it's tragic if Michael Jackson was indeed innocent
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DownNative · 12/01/2024 12:49

Last pages.

I'm working for the rest of the day. Cheerio!

To think it's tragic if Michael Jackson was indeed innocent
To think it's tragic if Michael Jackson was indeed innocent
To think it's tragic if Michael Jackson was indeed innocent
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DownNative · 12/01/2024 12:51

DownNative · 10/01/2024 23:30

There it is - resorting to clear personal attacks instead of focusing the argument made.

I suggest you familiarise yourself with the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines. 🤦‍♂️

A reminder here that personal attacks contributes absolutely nothing to the debate and are very clearly against Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

So, I guess people refrain from doing so. Cheerio!

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ChishiyaBat · 12/01/2024 14:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

KarenNotAKaren · 12/01/2024 14:09

DownNative · 12/01/2024 12:49

Last pages.

I'm working for the rest of the day. Cheerio!

Literally one of this proves that the very obvious pedophile Michael Jackson didn’t molest countless little boys.

Youre not the genius you think you are

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KarenNotAKaren · 12/01/2024 14:10

DownNative · 12/01/2024 12:51

A reminder here that personal attacks contributes absolutely nothing to the debate and are very clearly against Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

So, I guess people refrain from doing so. Cheerio!

But it’s ok for you to attack the CSA on here with your blatant belief that victims have to look and behave a certain way?

Why won’t you answer anyone’s questions about your favourite child molester’s behaviour?

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DownNative · 12/01/2024 14:14

KarenNotAKaren · 12/01/2024 14:10

But it’s ok for you to attack the CSA on here with your blatant belief that victims have to look and behave a certain way?

Why won’t you answer anyone’s questions about your favourite child molester’s behaviour?

That's a clear Strawman Argument Fallacy since I absolutely didn't make that argument. Not once have I done so.

It's telling how you have to blatantly and deliberately misrepresent what I'm saying here. 🤔

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WingingItSince1973 · 12/01/2024 14:26

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Thank you. I had one of my posts on here deleted as I felt I'd shared too much info and even after all these years I worry people won't believe me. There was evidence. It was awful though at the time I thought this is what all dads and daughters did. Talk about grooming. Then my life continued to spiral even after he had left the home as my mum took on 'lodgers'. I also used to be locked in the cupboard and tied to my bed as my mum couldn't cope with post csa me as an 8 year old. There's things I can't even tell my husband. But @KarenNotAKaren I was promiscuous as a teen right through to early adulthood. It's so true that we have a warped view of what love means. I don't think however old a csa survivor gets it's always there. Those poor boys MJ abused are now adults but will still be haunted by their abuse. Don't get me wrong I have a happy and fulfilling life now but have really had to overcome the feelings of inadequacy in all my relationships from friends to my dh. Hugs and love to all of you on here that have been through the same xxxx

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KarenNotAKaren · 12/01/2024 14:49

DownNative · 12/01/2024 14:14

That's a clear Strawman Argument Fallacy since I absolutely didn't make that argument. Not once have I done so.

It's telling how you have to blatantly and deliberately misrepresent what I'm saying here. 🤔

You perhaps didn’t mean to but you absolutely have.

Its telling that you won’t answer for the revolting behaviour of your hero

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Terfosaurus · 12/01/2024 14:57

@WingingItSince1973 I believe you. I'm sorry that happened to you.

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MoreDollies · 12/01/2024 15:05

@DownNative why does it matter to you so much? The man is dead.

He undisputedly had relationships with children that most people, today, would identify as problematic at the very least, and certainly worth questioning. Because a lot of activity happened behind closed doors, you are left with one word against the other. In the absence of physical evidence, you have chosen to give more validity to the grown up.

He may not have been convicted of anything but, surely, even a contrarian such as yourself would have to concede that that doesn't equate to being exonerated.

Especially since the burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt is put on historic testimony of someone who was once lovestruck and awestruck. A seven year old is not going to be savvy enough to keep a semen stained dress like Monica Lewinsky or even know why they should. Their testimony includes them believing that they had to keep it all a secret and this was reinforced by those around them who kept saying it was ok, including the superstar they were groomed to love. This is a common experience for anyone who has been a victim of abuse. The similarity of testimony about the patterns of behaviour from separate alleged victims would IMHO, these days, be sufficient to tip the balance of probability in their favour.

For you to believe that he crossed the worst of lines, what evidence would you expect them to be able provide? And this goes back to what people like @KarenNotAKaren is saying, just because they aren't presenting in a way that you might expect other victims to present, it doesn't mean that it didn't happen, it just means there isn't the physical evidence to prove it. So, can you at least accept it is possible that MJ crossed that line?

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BigMandsTattooPortfolio · 12/01/2024 15:15

I simply don’t understand how you can watch that video, see Jackson openly admitting to sleeping with chidren, walking all over a child’s boundaries, blurring boundaries in a way that only a manipulative groomer does, see his creepy smile which screams ‘Look and see how I can get away with this in plain sight’ and come away thinking he is innocent. That video is going to age really, really badly as are the creeps who continually try to defend this man. For what purpose I simply do not know or understand.

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ChishiyaBat · 12/01/2024 15:25

I also believe you @WingingItSince1973 Thank you for sharing your feelings, know that you and Karen are heard!

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Mirabai · 12/01/2024 15:37

What are you hoping to achieve here? @DownNative 

It has already been noted that the case was settled wrt negligence. 

You’re literally the only person in the thread who thinks that this has any bearing on whether Jordan Chandler was actually sexually abused by MJ - if that is the point you are trying to make.

What year was the law change you refer to? In 2021 the gender and sexual abuse class action involving USC and George Tyndall reached a $1 billion settlement before the criminal case went to trial. It was heard in the Central District of California.

One law change that is said to have happened directly after the settlement in 1994 was L.A. District Attorney Gil Garcetti proposed amending a law that prohibited sexual offence victims from being forced to testify in criminal cases. The amendment was introduced in the state assembly the next month.

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SerafinasGoose · 12/01/2024 15:59

KarenNotAKaren · 12/01/2024 00:49

Do you know wha the sickest thing is about the fact my mum still adores my rapist?

I go along with it

She knows what he did. I’m nearly fucking 40 years fucking old and i don’t have the balls to say to my mum “STFU the man you’re fawning over raped me as a child. How could you keep a relationship with him knowing that? Why are you pretending like it didn’t happen?”. But like the weak twat that I am I sit and say nothing. I nod and simper and be obedient because the very few times I’ve plucked up the courage to say “BYW mum can we talk about my rapist and how you still have a relationship with him and expect me to” she basically says “la la la” and sticks her fingers in her ears.

This man raped me at age 6. And I still listen to him being fawned over. I say NOTHING. I’m a smart strong women who can easily stand up for herself - but my rapist is my Achilles heel. Don’t anyone fucking dare say that survivors should ever do XYZ before they’re believed. Unless you have been through it you have NO idea. As for the simpering idiots who make excuses for them - congratulations you are a child abuser enabler. Hope that makes you happy.

How terrible. I'm so, so sorry you were put through this. That 'man' - I can't think of an epithet low enough - has stolen your childhood. Nothing gives anyone the right to do this.

I was raped twice (one was a gang rape) aged 15 - albeit this is a vast difference from 6 which is practically a baby - and was a victim of child abuse by a violent father. Sending solidarity to all others who have experienced such abuse, whatever your experiences may have been. ❤

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Delightfuldays · 12/01/2024 16:21

keylemon · 12/01/2024 08:43

This is what I do not get if people could see MJ behaved senseless towards children with alarming red flags. How did the parents allowed their kids to sleep with him in the same room. Clearly a creep then and still a creep now there are not excuses for the parents or for the people hired by MJ facilitating these meetings. Looking the other way is an understatement here.

Because he groomed the parents, children and everyone around them. He was a very powerful man. Jimmy Saville was the same.
Times were very different back then.

It was very hard to go against these 'heroes'. Those that tried to did not come out of it well.
Even now people still doubt the victims.

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Delightfuldays · 12/01/2024 16:24

BigMandsTattooPortfolio · 12/01/2024 15:15

I simply don’t understand how you can watch that video, see Jackson openly admitting to sleeping with chidren, walking all over a child’s boundaries, blurring boundaries in a way that only a manipulative groomer does, see his creepy smile which screams ‘Look and see how I can get away with this in plain sight’ and come away thinking he is innocent. That video is going to age really, really badly as are the creeps who continually try to defend this man. For what purpose I simply do not know or understand.

Exactly. His family knew. His sister tried to speak about it and got shutdown.

Michael was a very manipulative person.
You look back at interviews with him now and everything about his behaviour screams 'creep'. But at the time it was explained away as him being eccentric.

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hotpotlover · 12/01/2024 16:50

It seriously gave me the ick when I saw young cancer survivor Gavin leaning his head against Michael and holding hands like old lovers.

And when he said "Michael said if you love me you will sleep in my bed" 🤢

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Utterbunkum · 12/01/2024 17:03

I did hear that his own mother begged him to stop hanging around with young boys. That was around the time I heard about the whole 'Jesus juice' thing.

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Mirabai · 12/01/2024 17:11

Utterbunkum · 12/01/2024 17:03

I did hear that his own mother begged him to stop hanging around with young boys. That was around the time I heard about the whole 'Jesus juice' thing.

Isn’t that what Billie Jean is really about?

My momma always told me be careful what you do
Don’t go around breaking young (boys) hearts.
My momma always told me be careful who you love
Be careful what you do as the lie becomes the truth.

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MoreDollies · 12/01/2024 17:29

Mirabai · 12/01/2024 17:11

Isn’t that what Billie Jean is really about?

My momma always told me be careful what you do
Don’t go around breaking young (boys) hearts.
My momma always told me be careful who you love
Be careful what you do as the lie becomes the truth.

One of his songs came on the radio before Christmas (ie before this thread) and, in trying to ignore my two bickering in the back of the car, I was focusing on the song and whichever it was the lyrics were definitely 🤔🤔🤔 I have never been a fan so never really listened before (apart from having to learn a dance routine to Bad when I was at Brownies in the 80s!) But as you say, hiding in plain sight

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BayCityCoaster · 12/01/2024 17:54

DownNative · 12/01/2024 12:49

Last pages.

I'm working for the rest of the day. Cheerio!

People keep asking you to post links and not screen shots.

It’s 10 times easier and faster to just post links, instead of screen shots.

Why not just do that?

You are very, very, very invested in MJ - a man you have never met - being perceived as innocent. Aren’t you?

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KarenNotAKaren · 12/01/2024 18:08

BayCityCoaster · 12/01/2024 17:54

People keep asking you to post links and not screen shots.

It’s 10 times easier and faster to just post links, instead of screen shots.

Why not just do that?

You are very, very, very invested in MJ - a man you have never met - being perceived as innocent. Aren’t you?

It’s so bloody odd that people defend such an obvious child abuser. I’d love to probe the psychology around that

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SerafinasGoose · 12/01/2024 18:19

KarenNotAKaren · 12/01/2024 18:08

It’s so bloody odd that people defend such an obvious child abuser. I’d love to probe the psychology around that

Unfortunately it's a reflection of society in general. And society is very, very uncomfortable with the idea that so many men are sexual abusers or predators and that many are not very clever about hiding that fact (or, worse, like to flaunt it in plain sight in the safe assumption that no one will do one bloody thing about it).

So what gives instead? Must be the women who are lying. And worse, children. Hence the 'no one will believe you' defence. No one wants to believe their jolly, somewhat eccentric, avuncular colleage - who waddles, quacks, looks and swims like a duck just as Savile did - would sexually harrass a less-established colleague, so she is the one branded a morally reprehensible liar. (This, BTW, is my own personal experience).

Look at SM and you realise you've not encountered this attitude in isolation. The horrifying thing about #MeToo wasn't the volume of responses - that sadly didn't come as any great shock - but the vitriolic tone of the pushback against them. Women should shut up. Women are jumping on the bandwagon. Why don't women report it at the time? Women are lying. People simply do not want to hear it, and when they're being told loud and clear - even when unassailable evidence exists cf. Mel Gibson and Oksana Grigorieva - they put their fingers in their ears and go 'la, la, la'.

Same applies to the attitude to the sordid Andrew debacle. 'He hasn't been convicted of any crime!' (Course he hasn't). Or, in the discussion columns: 'Not this again! Boring! Make it stop, make it go away!' And the victims? 'She just wants money'.

I have to take a step back from the www at these times. Makes me incandescent with anger, but I want to cry at the same time.

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Mirabai · 12/01/2024 18:50

MoreDollies · 12/01/2024 17:29

One of his songs came on the radio before Christmas (ie before this thread) and, in trying to ignore my two bickering in the back of the car, I was focusing on the song and whichever it was the lyrics were definitely 🤔🤔🤔 I have never been a fan so never really listened before (apart from having to learn a dance routine to Bad when I was at Brownies in the 80s!) But as you say, hiding in plain sight

Thriller, Keep it in the Closet and Smooth Criminal are really problematic now.

There may be others - I don’t know his oeuvre that well. But even though
I always disliked his music, other than Jackson 5, it’s still so ubiquitous I know some of the lyrics to the famous ones.

What makes me uncomfortable now is that I think he was always singing about what he was doing, we just didn’t get it. Not necessarily consciously - it’s like a confession. And that smears all of us, even those who weren’t fans.

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