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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be disappointed with SILs decision re new baby.

885 replies

ankara · 26/12/2023 09:02

Respecting that all parents are quite within their rights to determine interaction between others and their babies, I am very disappointed and a bit 🙄 at SILs decision to put up a big sign at baby's cradle saying no touching , no lifting, no kissing.
There are no medical reasons for this. Baby is three weeks old.
None of the family have been allowed to do the above unless baby has been handed to family to give a bottle or r change baby.
I understand; that this is their first and is of course most precious but we are all a bit Confused and also disappointed as we love babies and we're so looking forward to cuddles .
Brother just goes along with her.
Is this a new thing? My kids are nearly teens now and I've not seen this before .

OP posts:
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6
BubziOwl · 26/12/2023 11:29

BubziOwl · 26/12/2023 11:25

It is very common knowledge that any animal with young babies will be very territorial and you shouldn't approach let alone try and remove their baby.

Yes, there are many mothers who have no problem with handing over their newborns for cuddles - more power to them. But maybe some of us are just still a bit more primitive and animal-like - when mine were very tiny, especially my first born, it felt almost physically uncomfortable to have other people holding my baby. I absolutely hated it. I couldn't explain it or justify it adequately, it just felt very unpleasant and wrong. I very much still had that primitive maternal instinct.

Secondly, yes the sign is a bit much. But if there's ever a time to excuse daft behaviour, it's when the person in question is swimming in a sea of postpartum hormones!

You'll live without hugging someone else's baby. Just be there for the new family.

I will also add that despite not being very liberal with allowing baby cuddles, my family (inc in-laws) and friends are still very much here for me and my children in the way they always have been because they're not spiteful or self-centred bellends.

If you decide how much you care about someone based on how much you were allowed to monopolise their baby when they were fresh out the womb, then I'd suggest you're a bit odd.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 26/12/2023 11:30

My SIL gave birth on Christmas Eve and has been advised when leaving the hospital to serious limit interactions because RSV and covid are rife locally.

FlamingoQueen · 26/12/2023 11:30

Just wait until she has her second - all the pfb rules go out of the window! You can remind her of it then.

Mrsm010918 · 26/12/2023 11:30

Katypp · 26/12/2023 10:17

Explain. I am not convinced the infant mortality rate has plummeted much in the past 25 years?

www.statista.com/statistics/1041714/united-kingdom-all-time-child-mortality-rate/

It doesn't look like much in comparison to the 1800s but that looks pretty significant still to me

fungibletoken · 26/12/2023 11:30

ankara · 26/12/2023 10:17

I'm reading all replies with interest and what's jumping out at me is the difference between attitudes, generally 15 years ago for example... and now.
When discussing uncomplicated and relatively straightforward pregnancies , tiredness and lack of enerygy for many if not all of us was a thing esp in the first and last trimester. Support as minimal. We were just expected to get on with it and we did so continued working and were bloody exhausted. Wai to Ed until last minute for maternity leave, cooked the dates etc so as to have lots of time on the other side .
CS were emergency unless elective for genuinely serious reasons and in my world were rare.
Things have changed so much. I expect it is because the world is busier.
I know from a midwife friend that CS has become more common in her part of the world due to obesity and private ob/gynaes.
But in my own family, children 👦 f friends, especially younger colleagues circle, So many expectant mums are signing off at 20/24 weeks with tiredness/ exhaustion etc. so many unable to go to work, shops, pick up their kids ir do anything that involves expending too much energy. They do not have complications, underlying medical issues, normally these women are fit and healthy pre pregnancy.
Then when baby is born, they are stressed , anxious , thinking their child has any number of diseases they r potential disease.
I wonder if it's a post Covid thing? I would love to hear opinions and observations from midwives and or Drs on this.

If you're picking up on anything there then it is most likely a much greater sensitivity around risk of stillbirths/maternal death/other complications that has developed in the last decade or so.

There's an NHS action plan/set of guidelines called "Saving Babies' Lives" that was introduced around 2014-2016:

"In November 2014, Secretary of State for Health announced a new ambition to reduce the rate of stillbirths by 50 per cent in England by 2025, with a 20 per cent reduction by 2020.
Despite falling to its lowest rate in 20 years, one in every 200 babies is stillborn in the UK; this is more than double the rate of nations with the lowest rates."

https://www.tommys.org/research/research-topics/stillbirth-research/saving-babies-lives-care-bundle

I gave birth this year via emergency C-section. My pregnancy was very normal until it all sort of fell off a cliff at around 30 weeks. It was then very closely managed in accordance with the newer guidelines leading to an induction at 36 weeks. That undoubtedly saved at least one or both of us compared to a non-interventionist approach.

There's an implication in your post that people are just being fussy. No - we have serious issues in this country around maternal and neonatal health and anything that's being done about that is a positive thing.

Coming back to your OP - the newborn phase is very short. I wouldn't pay too much attention to whatever the parents need to do to get them through it, and just look forward to developing your relationship with your new family member over the years to come. "Newborn snuggles" are a fairly insignificant part of that in the grand scheme of things.

Saving Babies' Lives Care Bundle

This ‘care bundle’ action plan will help NHS England to make maternity care safer, alongside guidelines to reduce preterm birth.

https://www.tommys.org/research/research-topics/stillbirth-research/saving-babies-lives-care-bundle

Smugandproud · 26/12/2023 11:30

I wouldn’t worry @ankara . Sil will be throwing baby no. 2 at you.

God knows how the human race has survived so long.

MacLaine · 26/12/2023 11:31

It’s a bit dramatic isn’t it a leave her to it. Take a photo of the sign for a laugh at the child’s 21st though. 🤭

MacLaine · 26/12/2023 11:32

FlamingoQueen · 26/12/2023 11:30

Just wait until she has her second - all the pfb rules go out of the window! You can remind her of it then.

Edited

Perhaps with her own sign! 😂😂😂

Tacotortoise · 26/12/2023 11:33

BubziOwl · 26/12/2023 11:25

It is very common knowledge that any animal with young babies will be very territorial and you shouldn't approach let alone try and remove their baby.

Yes, there are many mothers who have no problem with handing over their newborns for cuddles - more power to them. But maybe some of us are just still a bit more primitive and animal-like - when mine were very tiny, especially my first born, it felt almost physically uncomfortable to have other people holding my baby. I absolutely hated it. I couldn't explain it or justify it adequately, it just felt very unpleasant and wrong. I very much still had that primitive maternal instinct.

Secondly, yes the sign is a bit much. But if there's ever a time to excuse daft behaviour, it's when the person in question is swimming in a sea of postpartum hormones!

You'll live without hugging someone else's baby. Just be there for the new family.

Actually your first paragraph is nonsense. In social mammals the norm is that members of the pack/troop come and investigate (nuzzle, touch, groom) the new baby. In social primates this is especially true of related females (sisters aunts, grandmother's etc). In this way the baby is accepted as a member of the group and worthy of communal protection rather than, say, a snack.

General speaking though it's best not to directly extrapolate bw human and animal behaviour.

IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle · 26/12/2023 11:39

DewHopper · 26/12/2023 11:24

What mean spirited dreadful post.

It is, isn't it. I did wonder about responding to it but wasn't sure where to start- there's the assumption that children are public property for touching, cuddling and kissing for starters.

daisybe · 26/12/2023 11:40

ankara · 26/12/2023 09:05

Of course, but it's our first time
Meeting baby and we won't see him again for some months.

I think that while the sign is a bit much, I fully agree. Newborns are not toys to be passed around and turning up expecting free reign to grab a baby "because I love babies" is poor etiquette

A new mother is protective and at a few weeks old baby is very vaunerable. They only need and want their mother and definitely don't "need" to bond with anyone else just yet.

Respect her. If you respect her she'll more likey pass baby to you herself at some point, but being ratty about not getting free pickings is beyond inappropriate.

Read up the Newborn Nine or visiting a baby etiquette. Things have changed over the last few years. Don't impose your expectations onto a new mother just because you chose to deal with visitors differently.

Boysnme · 26/12/2023 11:46

I’m with you OP that when I had my kids people came round to cuddle the baby and it does feel the world has changed.

However as unusual as you find the parents choice, the best way for you to build a relationship with the baby is to respect their boundaries.

EmilyTjP · 26/12/2023 11:47

I’m a neonatal nurse and after covid we had a big problem with babies being readmitted to PICU with RSV and other illnesses because they hadn’t been exposed to other people. Babies need to be exposed to germs to build their immune system. This mumsnet mantra (which it is, as I don’t know anyone in real life who behaves like this) is damaging and harmful.

Matronic6 · 26/12/2023 11:47

You can be disappointed, but your SIL is allowed to set the this particular boundary. Whilst I think the sign is a bit much, I'd wonder why she felt she had to go that length.
There has been an awful respiratory virus going around this time of year. My 1yr old nephew was in hospital for it. If I had a newborn I don't think I'd be handing baby over for cuddles either.

LightDrizzle · 26/12/2023 11:48

People lose all common sense with tiny babies, and I’m not talking about their parents.

Newborns are not born with some super-immunity pack thanks to the placenta and breast milk; their ability to fight illnesses their mother hasn’t built immunity to is weak and they can deteriorate terrifyingly quickly without some of the external indicators present in older children and adults with with the same illness. Some illnesses that are unpleasant for adults can kill newborns. Even milder colds can blight the early weeks, one of DH’s barrister colleagues brought her children to see DD1 at a week old, they were full of cold and I only knew when I heard the youngest’s congested breathing as he loomed in close, touching her face. A few days later she had it and was never in danger, but she went from a contented feeder to distressed and battling for breath, and breastfeeds were awful for over two weeks. It was hellish and nothing like as bad as ending up in hospital with a newborn.

The most important bond a newborn needs is with one primary consistent caregiver, almost always the mother. They need that person’s smell and the security that comes with that person materialising and holding them close when they cry. I was luckily able to bf DD1 (expressed for DD2) but I feel sorry for FF feeding mums with selfish family and friends who clamour to feed the newborn, of course they love it because it’s the time when they tend to be most settled and gaze intently into the eyes of the person feeding them… - it’s intensely bonding, but both mother and baby need most feeds to be between them for just that reason! Bonding with wider family comes later when babies are more robust, social, and interactive. A newborn gets nothing out of being held by Uncle Josh. I don’t mean only the mother should ever hold newborns, but I’d never visit and expect a hold and I have had happy visits where I haven’t because the baby has been asleep through the short visit. I’d always wait for the mum to say “Do you want a hold?” if the baby is awake.

I’m always shocked at the vengeful “They’ll be sorry when nobody’s interested when the baby’s 18 months.” I can’t imagine that someone who doesn’t form a relationship with their grandchildren or nieces and nephews because they weren’t given free rein with them as newborns is someone very nice. Loads of people don’t live near wider family but still have loving relationships with grandchildren etc. despite not giving them bottles or even seeing them in early infancy. I’m glad my Newcastle grandma wasn’t like that!

It sounds like this SIL has had a difficult birth and is still sore mobilising 3 weeks on. She must be feeling incredibly vulnerable sometimes needing/ wanting her own baby passing to her or changed instead up just being able to do it herself without significant pain, particularly in front of people she doesn’t feel comfortable wincing, hobbling and huffing in front of.

I agree a sign is ridiculous but only in a way that reflects badly on the parents if they have family and friends who would never kiss a baby on it’s face or come with colds or pick up a sleeping or settled baby. It seems like this baby’s parents don’t have that confidence and “using your words” as everyone always suggests, doesn’t always go down very well and can be very difficult to do with pushy people, particularly if you are sore, exhausted and hormonal.

Justrolledmyeyesoutloud · 26/12/2023 11:50

I think it is mad op - it's good to have lots of people that want to love your baby. Can't imagine telling family they couldn't cuddle the new bany!

Justforxmas2023 · 26/12/2023 11:53

LightDrizzle · 26/12/2023 11:48

People lose all common sense with tiny babies, and I’m not talking about their parents.

Newborns are not born with some super-immunity pack thanks to the placenta and breast milk; their ability to fight illnesses their mother hasn’t built immunity to is weak and they can deteriorate terrifyingly quickly without some of the external indicators present in older children and adults with with the same illness. Some illnesses that are unpleasant for adults can kill newborns. Even milder colds can blight the early weeks, one of DH’s barrister colleagues brought her children to see DD1 at a week old, they were full of cold and I only knew when I heard the youngest’s congested breathing as he loomed in close, touching her face. A few days later she had it and was never in danger, but she went from a contented feeder to distressed and battling for breath, and breastfeeds were awful for over two weeks. It was hellish and nothing like as bad as ending up in hospital with a newborn.

The most important bond a newborn needs is with one primary consistent caregiver, almost always the mother. They need that person’s smell and the security that comes with that person materialising and holding them close when they cry. I was luckily able to bf DD1 (expressed for DD2) but I feel sorry for FF feeding mums with selfish family and friends who clamour to feed the newborn, of course they love it because it’s the time when they tend to be most settled and gaze intently into the eyes of the person feeding them… - it’s intensely bonding, but both mother and baby need most feeds to be between them for just that reason! Bonding with wider family comes later when babies are more robust, social, and interactive. A newborn gets nothing out of being held by Uncle Josh. I don’t mean only the mother should ever hold newborns, but I’d never visit and expect a hold and I have had happy visits where I haven’t because the baby has been asleep through the short visit. I’d always wait for the mum to say “Do you want a hold?” if the baby is awake.

I’m always shocked at the vengeful “They’ll be sorry when nobody’s interested when the baby’s 18 months.” I can’t imagine that someone who doesn’t form a relationship with their grandchildren or nieces and nephews because they weren’t given free rein with them as newborns is someone very nice. Loads of people don’t live near wider family but still have loving relationships with grandchildren etc. despite not giving them bottles or even seeing them in early infancy. I’m glad my Newcastle grandma wasn’t like that!

It sounds like this SIL has had a difficult birth and is still sore mobilising 3 weeks on. She must be feeling incredibly vulnerable sometimes needing/ wanting her own baby passing to her or changed instead up just being able to do it herself without significant pain, particularly in front of people she doesn’t feel comfortable wincing, hobbling and huffing in front of.

I agree a sign is ridiculous but only in a way that reflects badly on the parents if they have family and friends who would never kiss a baby on it’s face or come with colds or pick up a sleeping or settled baby. It seems like this baby’s parents don’t have that confidence and “using your words” as everyone always suggests, doesn’t always go down very well and can be very difficult to do with pushy people, particularly if you are sore, exhausted and hormonal.

This

Sirzy · 26/12/2023 11:56

Justrolledmyeyesoutloud · 26/12/2023 11:50

I think it is mad op - it's good to have lots of people that want to love your baby. Can't imagine telling family they couldn't cuddle the new bany!

If you love them then surely you want to help protect them too and not passing them round like a toy to people who visit once every few months is a good way to help protect them.

seeing a baby you love connected to machines to help them breath because they have contracted a “cold” isn’t much fun for anyone! Nobody can cuddle the baby then not even the parents.

daisybe · 26/12/2023 11:59

ankara · 26/12/2023 09:14

Picking baby up randomly was never y what I meant but when baby is to be comforted or fed or changed and an offer is made to do so whilst also having a cuddle, it's a hard no. Husband only unless he is not there and then she will allow a pick up for a feed or change so while her intention may be to reduce germs, her decision to all ow baby to be held is based on where her husband is, not a strict ban on all other people not touching baby.
Anyway I get the feeling I'm out of this game too long! In my time, exposing babies to others was considered the norm unless there was illness or immunity issues.

You forget that a mother's hormones are hardwired to release stress hormones whenever their baby cries, needs food or changing etc, so it's a biological need and reaction and perfectly normal for mum to want to reserve things like comforting, changing etc for herself or husband. And that's PERFECTLY OK.
I wouldn't be offended. So much research had come out the last few years, so much more info and education explaining more what's and why's etc so parents are generally more protective of their newborn bubble now than they were even only 10 years ago because of all this new information.

Show mum some respect. Once she realises she can trust you, she'll be much more likely to agree to your offer of help down the line but for now she's wanting to protect her baby bubble. Its only 3 weeks old, its new to her and she's still finding her feet. And that's ok.

I'd never ever expect to hold, comfort, feed a baby or change them, ever. Yet my brother just had one, 2 weeks old now. And while I was focusing on mum, making sure she was ok, brought her freshly cooked food etc. She literally handed me baby without me asking, he cried blue murder but she said it's OK, he's just hungry and quickly gave me a bottle to let me feed him. I didn't ask or expect this, it just happened and was very surprised!
And I think it's entirely because she felt comfortable with us there. We stayed 30- 40mins and left them with food and treats. We actually said we'll drop food at the door and go, we wernt expecting to come in yet, but they both insisted it was ok.
Plus I let her know what meals I'm batch cooking next in case she fancied some too.

Times have changed and I know its weird and jarring when you had a different approach, but try to show her some grace. You'll get your moments once she's feeling a bit more comfortable. Some people are very nervous and scared those first few weeks x

Nttttt · 26/12/2023 12:00

DyslexicPoster · 26/12/2023 10:39

The sign is really weird imo. I understand people not just grabbing baby and I would be keen on the kissing bit unless it’s a goodbye kiss. Maybe someone has ignored sil recently or maybe she is going pfb loopy. Either way I’d just respect it but I think it would ne nervous about holding the baby.

Midwives will tell you DO NOT let ANYONE kiss your baby. Have you seen a baby who has contracted RSV or herpes virus which is easily picked up from a tiny cold sore? It’s not worth the risk at all.

Mouse82 · 26/12/2023 12:01

pictoosh · 26/12/2023 09:06

The sign is a bit much. 😆

It's called boundaries. Something some people lack.

DeeLusional · 26/12/2023 12:01

EmilyTjP · 26/12/2023 11:47

I’m a neonatal nurse and after covid we had a big problem with babies being readmitted to PICU with RSV and other illnesses because they hadn’t been exposed to other people. Babies need to be exposed to germs to build their immune system. This mumsnet mantra (which it is, as I don’t know anyone in real life who behaves like this) is damaging and harmful.

What "mantra" is a problem? The new mum wasn't isolating her newborn, she was letting other folk feed and change her. She just didn't want people picking her up and disturbing her whenever they felt like it.

stayathomer · 26/12/2023 12:03

Op there’s an outbreak of rsv (I think it’s rsv) in Ireland and they’re telling people with babies to limit contact. Sorry to hear this but it’s the dodgiest time of year for babies anyway and has someone who saw what my friend went through when her baby was in hospital for weeks with something that wouldn’t have been at all dangerous for young kids or adults, I say fair dues to your sil, I’d have been too embarrassed to do it!

Riverlee · 26/12/2023 12:04

I’m with sil. Sign is a bit excessive, but the baby shouldn’t be randomly lifted out of her cot without her parents permission. She’s not stopping you having cuddles, but just stopping you helping yourself to the baby. I’m sure when baby is awake then you’ll get a cuddle.

sunshinesupermum · 26/12/2023 12:08

As a grandmother I would be most upset if my DD didn't want me to hold my 3 week old grandchild!