To be shocked that over half a million people under the age of 35 are out of work due to long-term sickness

[puncheur]

I had no idea. These numbers are extraordinary. 560k people between the ages of 16 and 34 economically inactive due to long term illness.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/24/500000-under-35s-out-of-work-long-term-illness-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I'm not jealous. I'm cross.

I'm cross that my relative has chosen to opt out of work.
I'm cross that my taxes are paying for it.
I'm cross that several people don't pass their PIP assessment first time round, as they are honest, whereas my relative was coached to pass first time.
I'm cross there is a system that permits this.
I'm cross that society has sunk so low that my relative is seemingly being defended for opting out of a working life by strangers who think they know more about them and the situation from my few internet posts than I do. How arrogant.

Pension fraud includes things like NHS pension, or Pension Credit. Pension fraud is stuff like not disclosing a work/private pension, lying that you are single and live alone when you're actually married, and not declaring income or property.

For example NHS pension fraud costs the NHS about £10 million per year.

Over the last two years alone: a taxi driver in his late 60s was fined for pension fraud for claiming Pension Credit and not disclosing his income from driving; a 75 yr old in Ireland was jailed for fraudulently applying for and receiving two separate pensions under two names; two 70-somethings in Cornwall were convicted of pension fraud after making a claim for Pension Credit that stated they lived in rented accommodation and had no income or property when he actually owned a string of rental properties and owned properties abroad; and a 69yr old in Preston was given a suspended prison sentence for not disclosing that he'd inherited a house in his Pension Credit claim. A few years ago an elderly man in Dundee was jailed for claiming to have no other income on his Pension Credit application when he had a £50k work pension.

Most of the elderly people convicted of pension fraud are for charges related to Pension Credit.

Your comment is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Everyone "knows" about disability benefit fraud because the media has an agenda to pretend it's a major problem, when the rate of disability benefit fraud is miniscule. Rates of pension fraud are more than ten times higher, yet the media is completely silent on that because of political reasons: no politician wants to be seen as targeting OAPs.

Rates of pension fraud are more than ten times higher, yet the media is completely silent on that because of political reasons: no politician wants to be seen as targeting OAPs.

Would you want politicians to target OAPs? Would this make [X whatever it is you have in mind] seem fairer to you?

The general narrative is that a lot of Pension Credit goes unclaimed.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/eligible-pensioners-urged-to-claim-pension-credit-to-help-with-cost-of-living

What are the scales of losses you suspect? Would you apply this without an age cap? Would you want asset stripping, a payback scheme or imprisonment?

Would you want politicians to target OAPs? Would this make [X whatever it is you have in mind] seem fairer to you?

Sadly it appears there are some on here who do think politicians should be targeting OAPs.

Please don't be abusive to disabled people who object to disabled people being scapegoated.

Rates of disability hate crimes are sky high, the Tory government is making disabled people like myself physically unsafe by promoting the false narrative that the country's financial problems is due to disabled people scamming benefits.

Nowhere have I said that pension fraudsters deserve to be shamed or attacked, nowhere have I advocated for that. You're attacking me and putting words in my mouth simply for posting objective facts: that the government and right wing media's abuse of disabled benefits recipients is not proportionate, given that other groups commit benefit fraud in substantially higher rates without being constantly cast as scroungers and cheats.

Mumsnet CONSTANTLY has ableist bigoted threats attacking disabled people as scroungers, these threads are often full of lies (there was one poster who was a regular on these threads who pretended to have been a disability benefits assessor for 20 years, who kept coming on insisting that 90% of people who receive disability benefits are lying scroungers, and this poster also told all sorts of other lies that are easily disproven by facts).

The actual truth is that benefit fraud of any kind is very small, the real financial cost to this country is corporations not paying tax.

Minorities are always scapegoated using lies and bigotry, and if you object to me standing up against that then tough because I will never stop calling out hate and bigotry.

I'm sure you know your relative better than anyone on this thread but I suppose I'm having difficulty understanding why anyone would choose a life on sickness benefits given as far as I understand they're quite meagre? I'm not saying nobody ever does it but it seems very odd to me.

there was one poster who was a regular on these threads who pretended to have been a disability benefits assessor for 20 years, who kept coming on insisting that 90% of people who receive disability benefits are lying scroungers, and this poster also told all sorts of other lies that are easily disproven by facts

I know exactly who you mean, it's funny how one disappears and another pops up every damn time.

Minorities are always scapegoated using lies and bigotry, and if you object to me standing up against that then tough because I will never stop calling out hate and bigotry.

Thank you, the recent increase in hatred towards people just about managing is awful on every level.

The 'my mate chooses to be on benefits as a lifestyle choice and still works cash in hand and goes to the pub' stuff has been around as long as the welfare state has. Claiming that one 'mate' is representative of everyone else. Benefits in this country in themselves do not provide an income to support these alleged 'lifestyles'. Family money, undeclared work, a decent amount of child maintenance and any other number of factors do though.

A sample size of one is not a study. It makes me particularly upset to think the people around me, let alone my family would view me in such a horrid way. Thankfully ASD runs through the bloodline so we are well informed.

I dislike being called "arrogant" when I'm speaking from my own experience of being autistic and also being on means-tested benefits, both sickness-related and what used to be called JSA.

I attest from personal experience that no one choses means-tested benefits over work for long. On means-tested benefits, you have very little money and your life is very small. If your relative has opted for benefits over work, it's because she sincerely believes that work will be intolerable for her.

As for researching her condition prior to assessment, this is recommended and a wise course of action given the lack of understanding of female autistic presentation even amongst specialist professionals.

If you want to know how well autistic reasonable adjustments are received by colleagues, should your employer actually make those adjustments (some of mine will never be implementated because my team no longer has its own office space), read https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/chat/4965780-would-you-resent-a-colleague-who-has-this-privilege ⬅ That bullying is what your relative faces if she gets a job. I've faced some of that too. I don't blame her for opting out for now. I think that she will change her mind.

I didn't say you could?

Nor me. Pension fraud is the lowest of all.

‘The State Pension overpayment rate remained at 0.1% in both FYE 2023 (£100m) and FYE 2022 (£130m). Overpayments due to Fraud remained at 0.0% in both FYE 2023 (£0m) and FYE 2022 (£20m). Overpayments due to Claimant Error remained at 0.1% in both FYE 2023 (£60m) and FYE 2022 (£60m).”

Working age benefit:

The main stories from the publication are: 3.6% (£8.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud and error. 1.4% (£3.3 billion) of total benefit expenditure was underpaid due to fraud and error.

For state pension, yes. Pension fraud in total (which includes things like Pension Credit fraud) is not 0.

At least six elderly people were convicted of Pension Credit Fraud in the last two years, and of course only a tiny minority actually progress to the point of a criminal trial.

Pension fraud is significantly higher than disability benefit fraud.

Six people convicted in two years is hardly supporting your argument

Please don't cherry pick, I literally said in my post that it's extremely unusual for benefit fraud cases to go to criminal court, since most people who are caught admit guilt and are fined without a trial.

Objectively, factually, many more people commit pension benefit fraud than commit disability benefit fraud.

Yes, six elderly people being convicted of criminal charges related to pension fraud in the space of a couple of years is a lot.

However you slice it, the objective facts are that more far more people commit pension benefit fraud (and other forms of benefit fraud) that commit disability benefit fraud, yet it's only ever disabled people who are attacked and scapegoated and portrayed as scammers. That's purely down to systemic ableism and a government who has actively tried to spread hatred about a minority group to use us as scapegoats, in a way that is very obviously not based on facts.

Yes, it's arrogant @VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia

Your experience is your experience. But only yours.

Your experience does not make you the expert on my relative.

Your experience does not make you the expert on their experience.

Your experience of a small life on benefits does not make you the expert on their life, their choices and their joint household income.

Your experience of choosing work does not make you the expert on every person with autism choosing to work or not work. You sincerely believe a benefits life over a working life is intolerable for you. Great. Your experience and choice does not mean you speak for my relative, or every other person with autism in this area.

The reasonable adjustments my relative was trying to get the company to make were ridiculous. What company should pay 8 hours for a 4 hour day?

And you even have the chutzpah to say that someone you've never met and have only read about from a few internet posts will change their mind about their working life in the future.

Yes. Arrogant.

If we're quoting threads about autism now, I'm loving this one. I think the OP and I would get on famously.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4972240-i-am-not-disabled

Absolutely I can cherry pick if I see something that is contradictory. Six people out of 12.5 million pensioners is not “a lot” it is minuscule. I cannot find anything factual to support your facts about pension fraud figures being higher than disability fraud (your source?) - just your own repeated assertions. Am turning off notifications for this thread now as getting tiresome.

Official government statistics released every year on the level of fraud for each type of benefit are very consistent that pension credit fraud and other forms of pension fraud is around 2-3%, while disability benefit fraud is consistently around 0.2-0.5%.

All my data comes from the official gov.uk site.

The vast, vast majority of benefit fraud causes obviously do not progress to a criminal trial. I'm very obviously not claiming those 6 people constitute the entirety of all pension benefit fraud, since the vast majority don't progress to criminal charges as the individuals admit to fraud and are simply charged without it going to court.

I don't know why people are being so hostile simply because it's pointed out that, factually, disability benefit fraud is miniscule, that the vast majority of cases reported to the fraud hotline are proven to be malicious false reports, that the government spends more money investigating malicious claims than they gain in uncovering genuine disability benefit fraud, and that the Tories are demonising disabled people as benefits cheats while ignoring that other groups commit benefit fraud in far higher rates.

And no, before you try to attack me and twist my words, I'm very obviously not trying to say that pensioners should be demonised, I'm simply pointing out the rank hypocrisy, and pointing out that the demonising of disabled people as benefits cheats is not based on objective fact.

I'm not surprised.

I previously worked in a well known global bank. They operated hybrid working during covid, but the expectation once covid was over was that if we wanted to work from home, it was pre approved and not every week.

We worked extremely long hours - 50 hours a week minimum was the norm. Eating lunch at desk. I took my hour long allocated lunch once and manager was ringing me after 45 mins asking where I was.

I am a single parent household and I became stressed and exhausted. To top it off, despite working my ass off for 4 years I was constantly being passed on promotion in favour of the managers friends.

Last year, I decided to go on sick leave before I took a psychotic break. I was drinking heavily to the point of passing out, I was miserable and tired all of the time.

I took 3 months off sick and in that time, I secured a new job with better pay. I went back for two weeks notice then left.

I wanted a bit more time off to recover emotionally but I didnt want to pass on a great opportunity. I took myself on holiday on the last week of my sick leave and spent it relaxing.

It was the best thing I ever did.

If the NHS made mental health services more accessible, there wouldnt be this situation. I paid out of my own pocket (around £2,500 for sessions overall) and just going to them made me decide that my job was NOT helping me and that I needed a change. Having third party input was definitely needed as my family etc were all telling me to stay in my "secure" job.

I now have a flexible working job which is hybrid (WFH 80% of time) and is paid more.

Companies also have a lot to answer for to how they treat their employees.

.Companies also have a lot to answer for to how they treat their employees.

This is the answer. Punitive sickness policies, presenteeism, targets, appraisals. Do they really make any difference or improve performance. The measure of a company is how much absence it has.

If the managers bonuses were off of retention, you would see a lot more effort put in.

I cant complain with my sick leave policy - I could have got 6 months on full pay then 3 months on half.

They were grossly understaffed, I was one of the more experienced employees bogged down with 60% of my teams work (yes I calculated it and there was 8 of us) and just because I had left, doesnt mean it stopped - it just gets thrown on someone else.

I contacted some ex colleagues who have told me its only got worse as well. That they had no xmas party this year and all got sent an email saying they couldn't have friends at work.

I meant the Bradford scale, but yes sick pay is an issue.

Ive never heard of not being able to have friends at work. Thats awful!

The reasonable adjustments my relative was trying to get the company to make were ridiculous. What company should pay 8 hours for a 4 hour day?

Those are, by definition, not reasonable adjustments.

If your relative's health will be better through not working, then she shouldn't work. YABVU in resenting her for that.

I bet a lot of this is "mental health"

Why the scare quotes?

You don't have to guess, or use quotation marks. There's a full breakdown in the stats, and yes a very large share is mental health related.

Because Caterpillars is the kind of ablist charmer who doesn't think that mental illness is real illness and probably thinks that attempting suicide at work isn't grounds to go off sick.