Page 12 | To be shocked that over half a million people under the age of 35 are out of work due to long-term sickness

puncheur · 2023-12-24T16:29:14+00:00

I had no idea. These numbers are extraordinary. 560k people between the ages of 16 and 34 economically inactive due to long term illness. [[https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/24/500000-under-35s-out-of-work-long-term-illness-uk?CMP=Share<u>iOSApp</u>Other https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/24/500000-under-35s-out-of-work-long-term-illness-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other]]

Fluffypuppy1 · 26/12/2023 12:09

Startingagainandagain · 26/12/2023 10:21

@Princessandthepea0 'The state isn’t funded by the magic money tree down in the garden of the fairies.'

And yet the magic money tree is alive and well when the state wastes billions on a useless track and trace system (what did good old Dido do with that money?), dodgy PPE contracts (Mone anyone?), giving MPs a plump pay rise, paying Boris Johnson legal expenses, giving useless people like Liz Truss a fat pension for life or on spending millions on a useless immigration scheme to secure a few Daily Mail headlines.

The real scroungers and criminals are not benefit claimants and/or disabled people. The majority are perfectly entitled to what they receive.

The real scroungers are at the moment are politicians, their dodgy mates and big corporate companies who find clever ways to avoid paying a fair amount of tax.

There should always be a safety net for the elderly and sick/disabled and vulnerable people of all ages. That's what decent societies do.

Track and Trace is a Royal Mail service. If you mean Test and Trace, then the majority of the money was spent on all of the “free” covid tests.

TriOptimim · 26/12/2023 12:34

Gonnagetgoingreturnsagain · 26/12/2023 10:59

@YetMoreNewBeginnings my NDN/friend’s adult son lives and works in Surrey I think, in a flat in a nice village. He did try to live locally in a flat but didn’t like the area (which is very nice) and rents are expensive here. He’s ND but on the spectrum. So he gets housing benefit and whatever else he’s entitled to, his DM helps him with this plus bills. She has no idea what he’ll do if the woman who owns the flat sells it as she has a mortgage and a new husband.

I don’t begrudge him that at all but the last time he visited me in my house he kept on looking round it saying “how do you afford all this by yourself?”. I was very tempted to say “I work hard for all this” (unlike you), but would never say that.

With friends like you...

zendeveloper · 26/12/2023 12:34

lapsedbookworm · 26/12/2023 11:35

I know what you are driving at and in some cases I am sure you are right.

But on the other hand having been diagnosed with a largely invisible condition that I now suspect I had for at least two decades, and which lead to me losing a job at least once during that time, i'm not so sure. Unfortunately GPs tend not to realise that it doesn't always show up in blood tests, so people can battle for years being made to feel it is all in their heads

With my condition it probably "looks like" I can do a lot, but only because of all the invisible (to others) time I spend resting to enable me to do that.

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Well, my point was exactly that the reasons are complex. It would be silly to think that no fraudulent claims are counted into that (shockingly high, I would admit) number. It would be equally silly to think that all claims are fraudulent.

You probably can see that people are naturally skeptical when someone claims to have a debilitating illness that has absolutely no objective means of discovery apart from self-reporting, but at the same time are able to do exactly everything what healthy people do, apart from (any kind of) work. It of course does not mean that there are no genuine cases like that!

The worst case I know is someone who does not even rely on the state, but rather on her family support. Has multiple illnesses and syndromes, does not trust mainstream medicine, takes a thousand of self-prescribed pills and supplements daily, her naturopathic practitioners declare her to be almost on her death bed... but also is somehow able to ski for a week, look after her horse, dance the night through, shop for hours and hours on her feet... Idk, it just somehow does not stack up in my head.

GreyCarpet · 26/12/2023 12:49

My friend has an adult daughter in that age bracket who will never work full time/permanently.

She was very premature and had complications and has ongoing long term health conditions. I'm sure she's not the only one.

If she'd been born a few years earlier, she wouldn't have survived.

I'm sure there will be many similar to her in that number.

I'm also sure that there will be fraudulent claims but she didn't ask to be limited or have her life restricted in the way it is.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 26/12/2023 12:55

Elfon · 24/12/2023 20:09

The upswing will be largely due to autism. There is increasing awareness of the condition and many more young people are seeking and receiving diagnosis.

Like anything else a diagnosis may feel helpful but unfortunately they do tend to become self fulfilling. Once a person has a label there is a tendency to be restricted or confined by it.

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It's self-fulfilling because other people discriminate against us, not because we give up on trying. If autistic people aren't getting jobs after diagnosis and are ending up on sickness benefits, it's because we are being discriminated against by employers, not because we don't want to work.

SuperheroBirds · 26/12/2023 12:58

Charlie2121 · 26/12/2023 00:43

I work in an environment where most people earn 100k+.

I don’t know a single person in the last 20 years who has had to leave such a role due to ill health.

I also don’t see anyone attending work who is clearly unfit to do so.

This leads me to believe that huge swathes of sickness from work is not genuine.

It’d be interesting to see the stats on average lifetime annual salary vs average time absent from work. If sickness was random then no correlation should exists however I’d wager it is heavily related.

As others have said, the types of jobs and higher wages make it easier to manage illness. I have a chronic illness/disability and am a high earner. This meant that when my symptoms got worse, and were impacting me on a daily basis, I was able to skip the NHS waiting list (which I was told was more than a year for a first appointment) and go private. Within a few months I’d had several expensive tests and procedures, and was prescribed medication that I’ll have to take for the rest of my life. The medication has pretty much completely eliminated my symptoms, and throughout it all I didn’t have to take any time off sick.

Because of my role and position, on days when the gastric symptoms were at their worst and I couldn’t commute in or would not be pleasant in the office, I could work from home. If I had worked in a shop, factory, call centre, care home, or any number of face to face roles, I would have had to take the time off sick and potentially lost my job. If I didn’t have private healthcare, I would probably still be on an NHS waiting list for different tests/procedures.

I’d have to be an idiot not to recognise the privilege that my circumstances gave me. My symptoms got worse and I went to the dr at 35, if it had been earlier in my career, I’m not sure I would have got to the level I’m at now.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 26/12/2023 13:00

Startingagainandagain · 26/12/2023 10:21

@Princessandthepea0 'The state isn’t funded by the magic money tree down in the garden of the fairies.'

And yet the magic money tree is alive and well when the state wastes billions on a useless track and trace system (what did good old Dido do with that money?), dodgy PPE contracts (Mone anyone?), giving MPs a plump pay rise, paying Boris Johnson legal expenses, giving useless people like Liz Truss a fat pension for life or on spending millions on a useless immigration scheme to secure a few Daily Mail headlines.

The real scroungers and criminals are not benefit claimants and/or disabled people. The majority are perfectly entitled to what they receive.

The real scroungers are at the moment are politicians, their dodgy mates and big corporate companies who find clever ways to avoid paying a fair amount of tax.

There should always be a safety net for the elderly and sick/disabled and vulnerable people of all ages. That's what decent societies do.

This is worthy of repeating.

How much was wasted on that asylum seekers' ship with the infected water? How much money has been sent to Rwanda?

Princessandthepea0 · 26/12/2023 13:05

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 26/12/2023 13:00

This is worthy of repeating.

How much was wasted on that asylum seekers' ship with the infected water? How much money has been sent to Rwanda?

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It’s really small fry. As terrible as the ideas are - stopping them won’t help with a state deficit of 140 billion ish. We are spending behind our means. The wastage of a couple of million here and there is a drop in the ocean to the real issue. Our books don’t balance - catastrophically so.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 26/12/2023 13:08

Handsnotwands · 26/12/2023 10:27

I can provide some anecdata. Dd has always been a bit odd, difficult if you will but we ploughed on through life.

when I switched to wfh during covid and she was home from school for months and months on end we spent so much more time together than we ever had since she was a baby and it became patently clear to me she was autistic.

partly as a result of that change in how much I saw her but also how lockdown exacerbated some of her particular issues i guess similar may have happened to lots of people during that time. Kids who were hanging on, following the routine, keeping their heads down at school moved from being “a bit odd” to a label or a statistic.

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Kids who were hanging on, following the routine, keeping their heads down at school moved from being “a bit odd” to a label or a statistic.

"A bit odd" at school translates into a lifetime of never fitting in; not coping in social situations; having to jump from job to job to avoid being "managed out", disciplined, or fired; being vulnerable to abuse; constant social anxiety (think no-showing to a wedding levels of social anxiety); struggling with bright lights and loud noises; and thinking all the while that all the above is because you aren't trying hard enough.

If the kid is autistic, the diagnosis will help them understand themselves, acquire a toolset for managing life, and, importantly, not blame themselves.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 26/12/2023 13:11

Princessandthepea0 · 26/12/2023 13:05

It’s really small fry. As terrible as the ideas are - stopping them won’t help with a state deficit of 140 billion ish. We are spending behind our means. The wastage of a couple of million here and there is a drop in the ocean to the real issue. Our books don’t balance - catastrophically so.

Show quote history

Giving all PIP claimants another fiver a week would also be small fry, yet I don't see anyone jumping to support that idea.

It's almost like disabled people are disposable subhumans who it's OK to starve to save a bit of cash in the eyes of many.

pucelleauxblanchesmains · 26/12/2023 13:24

I was diagnosed with a serious physical health condition over two years ago and I have finally worked my way up to having a full time job but it took/takes a lot of effort, luck and currently my whole life revolves around keeping myself well enough for that job. If I hadn't eventually got a diagnosis and had a support network I could easily see myself being part of that half a million.

lapsedbookworm · 26/12/2023 13:38

SuperheroBirds · 26/12/2023 12:58

As others have said, the types of jobs and higher wages make it easier to manage illness. I have a chronic illness/disability and am a high earner. This meant that when my symptoms got worse, and were impacting me on a daily basis, I was able to skip the NHS waiting list (which I was told was more than a year for a first appointment) and go private. Within a few months I’d had several expensive tests and procedures, and was prescribed medication that I’ll have to take for the rest of my life. The medication has pretty much completely eliminated my symptoms, and throughout it all I didn’t have to take any time off sick.

Because of my role and position, on days when the gastric symptoms were at their worst and I couldn’t commute in or would not be pleasant in the office, I could work from home. If I had worked in a shop, factory, call centre, care home, or any number of face to face roles, I would have had to take the time off sick and potentially lost my job. If I didn’t have private healthcare, I would probably still be on an NHS waiting list for different tests/procedures.

I’d have to be an idiot not to recognise the privilege that my circumstances gave me. My symptoms got worse and I went to the dr at 35, if it had been earlier in my career, I’m not sure I would have got to the level I’m at now.

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Exactly, and similar. On a bad day, and with the benefit of teams "backgrounds" I have even worked from bed.

People with my condition who work in shops etc quite simply don't have the same options and generally can't keep a job. They may however on good weeks manage to look like they aren't ill.

BouncingJAS · 26/12/2023 13:48

@Spendonsend

What the UK should be doing is removing the £12.57k personal allowance gradually over the next 10 years, because that is precisely what is slowly destroying the country. It is far too high.

That way EVERYBODY pays in. Including the old.

Thats how you move away from a low wage economy and fund public services properly.

Right now we have many people in the UK paying little to no income tax but massively utilising public services. This has to stop.

FestiveFruitloop · 26/12/2023 14:17

BouncingJAS · 26/12/2023 13:48

@Spendonsend

What the UK should be doing is removing the £12.57k personal allowance gradually over the next 10 years, because that is precisely what is slowly destroying the country. It is far too high.

That way EVERYBODY pays in. Including the old.

Thats how you move away from a low wage economy and fund public services properly.

Right now we have many people in the UK paying little to no income tax but massively utilising public services. This has to stop.

How are the 'old' supposed to afford that out of their pensions? Always assuming the cost of living hasn't kept them working into their 70s and 80s, I mean...

BouncingJAS · 26/12/2023 14:23

@FestiveFruitloop

The "old" in the UK are the wealthiest cohort out of everybody (working people included).

The country will keep imploding until they start paying in a lot more. Too many people in the UK have no idea just how poor the State really is.

The UK is BROKE. How do people not understand this yet?

and worse,

Its going to get much worse as the population ages (more over 65s and less working taxpayers) and demographics kicks in further.

The next 5 years will be economically and financially BRUTAL. Huge spending cuts incoming because of massive tax revenue to spending differences.

Thats what happens when 54% of the population doesn't pay in enough tax.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 26/12/2023 14:24

BouncingJAS · 26/12/2023 13:48

@Spendonsend

What the UK should be doing is removing the £12.57k personal allowance gradually over the next 10 years, because that is precisely what is slowly destroying the country. It is far too high.

That way EVERYBODY pays in. Including the old.

Thats how you move away from a low wage economy and fund public services properly.

Right now we have many people in the UK paying little to no income tax but massively utilising public services. This has to stop.

I have a better idea: land value tax. The super-rich can't hide land in offshore tax havens.

BouncingJAS · 26/12/2023 14:26

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia

I don't disagree but they (aristocracy) would likely tie up that legislation in the courts for years.

You might be able to reband council tax and add a few extra upper bands. That should be doable and will get you some £££.

TempestTost · 26/12/2023 14:33

The real question is why there are more young people in this situation than their used to be. Of course there have always been people unable to work.

I have some doubts that it is mainly about young people being more ill with diseases etc. There could be some small element of that, but it's not, IMO, significant. And that will include autism. I don't think autism cases have actually gone up that much.

I'd look at three main things:
Changes in types of employment available meaning that people who used to find work in certain types of jobs no longer can find anything they can do. (Related to this, potentially, changes in education?)

The mental health crises in young people.

A change in attitude to work among young people.

I think these are probably all factors, but I think the latter two are connected to some extent. There is a definite feeling among a good number of young people that if they are feeling shitty, have any pain, or are facing some kind of adversity, they cannot work. I suspect it's a true belief for many of them and it is actually really bad for their mental health.

I have a lot of serious mental health issues in my family and extended family, including older generations, so I'm not unaware they can be very real and sometimes debilitating - I've had family members who have died from mental health problems. I'm not trying to imply they can't be serious.

But the current explosion among young people is not an organic phenomena, and it's not been brought on by "hard times" - those have existed in the past as well, we aren't at some uniquely bad place in history, even if we just look at the last 150 years. It's to do with something we are doing.

WhatsTheUseOfWorrying · 26/12/2023 14:55

TempestTost · 26/12/2023 14:33

The real question is why there are more young people in this situation than their used to be. Of course there have always been people unable to work.

I have some doubts that it is mainly about young people being more ill with diseases etc. There could be some small element of that, but it's not, IMO, significant. And that will include autism. I don't think autism cases have actually gone up that much.

I'd look at three main things:
Changes in types of employment available meaning that people who used to find work in certain types of jobs no longer can find anything they can do. (Related to this, potentially, changes in education?)

The mental health crises in young people.

A change in attitude to work among young people.

I think these are probably all factors, but I think the latter two are connected to some extent. There is a definite feeling among a good number of young people that if they are feeling shitty, have any pain, or are facing some kind of adversity, they cannot work. I suspect it's a true belief for many of them and it is actually really bad for their mental health.

I have a lot of serious mental health issues in my family and extended family, including older generations, so I'm not unaware they can be very real and sometimes debilitating - I've had family members who have died from mental health problems. I'm not trying to imply they can't be serious.

But the current explosion among young people is not an organic phenomena, and it's not been brought on by "hard times" - those have existed in the past as well, we aren't at some uniquely bad place in history, even if we just look at the last 150 years. It's to do with something we are doing.

Yup. NEETs.

FestiveFruitloop · 26/12/2023 15:36

BouncingJAS · 26/12/2023 14:23

@FestiveFruitloop

The "old" in the UK are the wealthiest cohort out of everybody (working people included).

The country will keep imploding until they start paying in a lot more. Too many people in the UK have no idea just how poor the State really is.

The UK is BROKE. How do people not understand this yet?

and worse,

Its going to get much worse as the population ages (more over 65s and less working taxpayers) and demographics kicks in further.

The next 5 years will be economically and financially BRUTAL. Huge spending cuts incoming because of massive tax revenue to spending differences.

Thats what happens when 54% of the population doesn't pay in enough tax.

I understand these points perfectly. But it's naive, and inaccurate, to assume all or even most of the elderly are wealthy just because of that statistic.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 26/12/2023 15:52

BouncingJAS · 26/12/2023 14:26

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia

I don't disagree but they (aristocracy) would likely tie up that legislation in the courts for years.

You might be able to reband council tax and add a few extra upper bands. That should be doable and will get you some £££.

Removing the personal allowance is taking from the poorer people. Land Value Tax would hit the richest. The big barrier to LVT isn't the courts, but the MPs taking bribes donations to vote the "right" way.

Crikeyalmighty · 26/12/2023 16:24

@Startingagainandagain and in addition to the magic money tree items you mentioned we of course have the £250 to £400 billion lost on Brexit. a mere trifle of course , plus all the HS2 money.

I cannot help but think the HS2 money was stopped when they saw which way the wind was blowing in the polls and realised bribing those working class northern towns with HS2 and a Brexit that clearly isn't making all but a very few (mainly tradesmen and very well off with offshore money ) better off , no longer was cutting the mustard or believable.

There are though as I've said before some complete perfectly well piss takers out there who do everyone a total disservice including those who genuinely have real physical and/or severe mental health issues and struggle to get any help

OfcourseitsaNC · 26/12/2023 17:03

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 26/12/2023 12:55

It's self-fulfilling because other people discriminate against us, not because we give up on trying. If autistic people aren't getting jobs after diagnosis and are ending up on sickness benefits, it's because we are being discriminated against by employers, not because we don't want to work.

Show quote history

You can only speak for yourself here.

My relative used their Autism diagnosis as an opt out of work for life card.

BouncingJAS · 26/12/2023 17:24

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia

No, its "broadening the tax base", which is precisely what is required. Too many people think they are "owed" public services even though they pay little to nothing in. Its this culture of "something for nothing" that needs to be utterly eradicated in the UK.

But even that will not get you anywhere near enough taxes to fund public services properly due to Brexit damage (which causes a loss of £40bn in tax revenue annually).

We are talking about requiring £100bn+ in additional tax every year.

You would need a combination of tax rises (council tax, removal of personal allowance) and spending cuts to achieve that kind of money.

Thats how bad the situation is in the UK. The country is literally on economic life support, but the politicians keep lying to the public about it.

BouncingJAS · 26/12/2023 17:34

@FestiveFruitloop

Let me repeat:

The country is broke. It is literally borrowing money to fund the pensions and healthcare of the old as there is not enough tax revenue coming in.

How have you folks not grasped this?

The "old" will figure this out once they start dying from not being able to access the NHS. Thats already happening and will get exponentially worse as junior doctors leave abroad.

There is no possibility now of "someone else paying for it", which is what has been happening the last 20 years with the "kicking the can down the road" crowd.

The UK has now effectively reached the end of the road due to demographics and Pandemic/Brexit damage.