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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Anti-gay marriage

239 replies

NotGotAClue1 · 21/12/2023 13:21

My finance and the father of my young child told me that he doesn’t agree with gay marriage, not being gay in general, just the marriage part. And that it would be better for a child to be raised by a man and a woman. I’m completely offended by this and don’t agree in the slightest. I think he is thinking like a dinosaur and needs to move with the times. He thinks we can have different views and move on. But this has actually changed the way I look at him. He isn’t religious at all which is making me even more confused at his strong views.

AIBU?

OP posts:
CurlewKate · 22/12/2023 14:29

@Verv
"My issue with marriage is not the sex or sexual orientation of those within the union, it is with the institution of marriage itself."

Me too. We are in a very exclusive club on Mumsnet! While of course I support gay people's right to marry, it always seems to me to be equalling down, not up.....

Verv · 22/12/2023 14:51

Thank you @CurlewKate far more succinct than me!

AnonnyMouseDave · 22/12/2023 15:46

NotGotAClue1 · 21/12/2023 13:21

My finance and the father of my young child told me that he doesn’t agree with gay marriage, not being gay in general, just the marriage part. And that it would be better for a child to be raised by a man and a woman. I’m completely offended by this and don’t agree in the slightest. I think he is thinking like a dinosaur and needs to move with the times. He thinks we can have different views and move on. But this has actually changed the way I look at him. He isn’t religious at all which is making me even more confused at his strong views.

AIBU?

I support gay marriage, but -

(1) There is an argument that marriage is a (religious - religions being homophobic) thing between man and a woman and that civil partnerships are what should be available for LGB and straight couples who want legal rights, and leave marriage as a purely religious, bigoted hateful thing.

(2) IMHO men and women have different strengths, on average, therefore, on average, other things being equal, it is better to have opposite sex parents not same sex ones. Stats might contradict my gut feel, but I believe that having opp. sex parents almost inevitably gives a better balance of nurture and more masculine characteristics, which both sexes benefit from. This doesn;t mean got and singl parents shouldn;t bring up kids, and obviously they often do a fantastic job (just as it is the case that straight parents can do a dreadful job).

I think that you should consider why you are offended? Is it because you have thought the issues through and come to rational opinions, or is it because you support LGB rights and believe that your position is the most pure one?

Boomboom22 · 22/12/2023 15:54

Sounds like you have misrepresented his view. He thinks the church shouldn't be forced to accept gay marriage / uses the religious definition of marriage. He doesn't sound bigoted in his actions or like he is campaigning to change the law or would not attend a gay friends wedding.

2mummies1baby · 22/12/2023 17:10

@Verv Would it be correct to say that you feel yourself to be "against marriage" rather than "against gay marriage"? It sounds like this is the case, and I think you would have saved yourself a lot of bother if you'd stated it this way from the very beginning.

2mummies1baby · 22/12/2023 17:12

It's amazing the number of people who seem to think the Church invented/owns marriage. There is absolutely no need for marriage to be religious, so any arguments about poor Christians having to share their precious institution of marriage with the gays are irrelevant.

VolvoFan · 22/12/2023 17:23

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

TriOptimim · 22/12/2023 17:30

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Challenging people's opinion is fascism? That's the most ridiculous thing on this thread.

JazbayGrapes · 22/12/2023 17:59

Haven't RTFT but is this the hill you want to die on?

gannett · 22/12/2023 18:15

Verv · 22/12/2023 14:09

Not only do I simply "not want to get married", I think that the gay community does itself a disservice when it attempts to conform to heteronormative and traditional ideals of what relationships should look like in order to be considered valid by wider society.

It is my opinion that gay people can protect themselves financially and give themselves the same level of rights and security by using civil partnership which is a perfectly viable option that isn't rooted in ownership, conservatism, tradition, religious belief and is, in my opinion, an outdated institution no longer compatible with modern relationships, including homosexuality.

My issue with marriage is not the sex or sexual orientation of those within the union, it is with the institution of marriage itself.
I understand that there is a lot of pressure within the heterosexual community to marry because it is often linked with finances, this can be evidenced by the number of mumsnet threads about "he doesn't want to marry me, my high earning DP is avoiding talk about marriage, he doesn't want to commit even though ive washed his pants for a decade, my DH doesn't lift a finger and i'm unhappy but I cant leave because we're married, DH has been abusive and I want to leave but hes emptied our joint account behind my back and i'm scared about divorce" etc etc, and upon reading this I have no idea why gay people wish to engage with or link themselves to such an antiquated system that appears to be particularly designed to oppress women into domesticity in order to formalise their relationships.

If they just want to do it because it's their right and thats how they want to formalise their relationship, thats fine.

I have absolutely no inclination to remove the right to from ANYBODY, gay or straight, and im more than capable of understanding that it may be what other people absolutely want to do for their own reasons within their own relationships, but my thoughts on the matter run much deeper than "not wanting to do it", to the point that I am actually pretty against it.

Hope that clarifies.

Show quote history

Tbh I actually agree with your stance on marriage and - having been influenced, possibly inspired, by a few very close gay friends and their long-term relationships, these are the reasons I don't believe in marriage either. It's a political stance and I get it.

However in the context of the OP... the problem is that I think her husband is coming at this from the perspective of plain old homophobia, not radical queer progressiveness. In those situations I think it's necessary to argue that such an anti-gay marriage view is deeply harmful.

Boomboom22 · 22/12/2023 18:16

@2mummies1baby but we do have 25 bishops in the house of Lords, and that was the entire reason for the invention of civil partnerships. Hence the law in 2007 then years later in 2013 gay marriage was approved. Because of the church of England having power over law.

gannett · 22/12/2023 18:16

JazbayGrapes · 22/12/2023 17:59

Haven't RTFT but is this the hill you want to die on?

Do please explain why bigotry - and potentially causing deep harm to your child - isn't a hill worth dying on. If this isn't, what is?

Boomboom22 · 22/12/2023 18:16

Sorry I think 26 bishops are Lords, because of their Bishop position not independently.

SummaLuvin · 22/12/2023 18:24

gannett · 22/12/2023 18:16

Do please explain why bigotry - and potentially causing deep harm to your child - isn't a hill worth dying on. If this isn't, what is?

Show quote history

not to mention growing up in a household where there is conflict between parent as a result of each having such different values

Tooshytoshine · 22/12/2023 18:57

@Verv that makes perfect sense now.

We are civilly partnered as marriage was not legal but we have no desire to convert our union as we are not religious. Admittedly, we are very heteronormative and do not live as part of a wider queer community but the majority of our friends are straight as we like the people not the sexuality (and the majority of people are straight)

I appreciate your points about heteronormativity but also think that some people are Christian and gay so marriage equality is important as gay relationships are as valid and important as straight relationships so should have parity.

Original poster
NotGotAClue1 · 22/12/2023 19:00

To be clear, my partner wouldn’t push his views onto our child. He has said that. He used to be a teacher and had to be very neutral with his students which was fine for him. He doesn’t push his views onto others or me, he accepts mine. It is me who is struggling to accept his. And if we were to separate over this, it’s not as though he would then have nothing to do with our child. He’d be a very active part of their life as I would want because he’s a good dad.

OP posts:
TriOptimim · 22/12/2023 19:03

NotGotAClue1 · 22/12/2023 19:00

To be clear, my partner wouldn’t push his views onto our child. He has said that. He used to be a teacher and had to be very neutral with his students which was fine for him. He doesn’t push his views onto others or me, he accepts mine. It is me who is struggling to accept his. And if we were to separate over this, it’s not as though he would then have nothing to do with our child. He’d be a very active part of their life as I would want because he’s a good dad.

If your child was to get married and have a baby with someone of the same sex, I don't see how he could happily go along with it and hide his feelings if he thinks it's so wrong. It's a bit 'I'm against this unless it's me or my family then it's fine'.

2mummies1baby · 22/12/2023 19:10

Boomboom22 · 22/12/2023 18:16

@2mummies1baby but we do have 25 bishops in the house of Lords, and that was the entire reason for the invention of civil partnerships. Hence the law in 2007 then years later in 2013 gay marriage was approved. Because of the church of England having power over law.

I genuinely don't mean this rudely, but I'm not quite sure what your point is?

JazbayGrapes · 23/12/2023 08:44

Do please explain why bigotry - and potentially causing deep harm to your child - isn't a hill worth dying on. If this isn't, what is?

To my understanding - that child is yet very little. What does it matter to them if father thinks gay marriage should be blessed in church or not?
But it will matter if the mother chooses to break up the family over something so trivial.

gannett · 23/12/2023 09:21

JazbayGrapes · 23/12/2023 08:44

Do please explain why bigotry - and potentially causing deep harm to your child - isn't a hill worth dying on. If this isn't, what is?

To my understanding - that child is yet very little. What does it matter to them if father thinks gay marriage should be blessed in church or not?
But it will matter if the mother chooses to break up the family over something so trivial.

Because the root of the father's belief is homophobia. He thinks gay people and gay relationships are lesser than straight people and straight relationships. That isn't trivial in any sense, and particularly not when it comes to the possibility that he may be raising a gay child.

If the family contains a bigot then it is much more preferable to break it up, yes. A child is better off raised by a loving, accepting single mum than by a bigot in a marriage.

Grimpo · 23/12/2023 09:51

Cosyblankets · 21/12/2023 13:26

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Given that you're engaged and having a baby I would have thought his opinions on many things would have come up in conversation by now. Just because you don't agree with it, I don't see how you're personally offended by it.

A bigoted opinion is different from one that you simply don't agree with, because of the underlying character traits that it demonstrates.

Grimpo · 23/12/2023 09:55

scatterolight · 21/12/2023 13:44

Your opinion is very fashionable in the modern era. But go back a few years and everyone would have agreed that the ideal situation is for a child to have a mother and father. Perhaps the wheel will turn again one day and it's you who will be the dinosaur.

Perhaps you could list the advantages of being a motherless or fatherless child compared to having both? You might be able to persuade your DP to your fashionable view.

This is a very facile view of what makes for happy, stable family life. It doesn't take long looking at the Relationships thread here to find examples of heterosexual relationships which are abusive, toxic and must constitute a dreadful environment for any children. Conversely, two of the most stable, loving families I know have gay couples as parents. It's the people concerned who are important, not their sex.

graceinspace999 · 23/12/2023 10:15

NotGotAClue1 · 22/12/2023 19:00

To be clear, my partner wouldn’t push his views onto our child. He has said that. He used to be a teacher and had to be very neutral with his students which was fine for him. He doesn’t push his views onto others or me, he accepts mine. It is me who is struggling to accept his. And if we were to separate over this, it’s not as though he would then have nothing to do with our child. He’d be a very active part of their life as I would want because he’s a good dad.

It sounds like you are happy so far. I don’t see why you should split up over this opinion.

He is being honest and I’d value that over a liar.

You won’t get everything in one man. And no man will find you perfect either.

So if you split up over this the next man will also have issues.

I have a very dear friend who has different opinions to me.

I would never agree with her but she is a wonderful friend and we just agree to disagree.

To be honest I’d suggest a few hours couples counselling would benefit you more than anything said here.

JazbayGrapes · 23/12/2023 18:51

If the family contains a bigot then it is much more preferable to break it up, yes. A child is better off raised by a loving, accepting single mum than by a bigot in a marriage.

So do you value some random, unrelated, maybe even fictional gay relationships over your own family? That's some very strange set of priorities.

Verv · 27/12/2023 16:14

2mummies1baby · 22/12/2023 17:10

@Verv Would it be correct to say that you feel yourself to be "against marriage" rather than "against gay marriage"? It sounds like this is the case, and I think you would have saved yourself a lot of bother if you'd stated it this way from the very beginning.

No.
But again, thank you for your interest in reinterpreting what I've said and advising me to say something different.