To feel sad my DD missed Christmas dinner

[UndertheCedartree]

My 11yo DD is autistic and she has recently started at a new school. The school have been great in supporting her.

Sadly, she went into a Science class for the first time yesterday and as they have set seats she asked the teacher where she should sit. The teacher snapped at her that she didn't know and she had to stand at the front of the class waiting for the others to sit down which really unsettled and upset her.

Today was their Christmas dinner day and they could go in wearing pyjamas. She was really looking forward to this. But as we got closer to school this morning she got more and more distressed. Once in school she had a full on meltdown that went on for ages. Eventually she calmed down enough for me to leave and they took her up to the Learning support centre where she promptly fell asleep exhausted after her melt down. She missed her Christmas dinner! After a while they asked me to come and pick her up. I feel so sad for her. I'd spent a lot of time preparing her for the Christmas dinner and it was going to be a nice way to introduce her to the canteen. And she was so looking forward to it. All spoilt because a teacher took her bad mood out on her.

@UndertheCedartree

In all honesty I just find it comical because you are like a broken record.

And threads like this just confirm that I am still thrilled to have left teaching, 6 years later!!

Wow! Amazing post. You look so clever.

Some of us are interested in the topic. Some of us want to talk about it. Is Autism such a useless subject to talk about noone could possibly genuinely want to discuss it?

I think the real question is why you feel the need to keep trying to derail it? Have you nothing to discuss so want to stop other people? What is it you're hoping to gain from your posts? Is it you just want to keep policing threads? Is that it? 🤔

Good for you! And honestly, I'm sure teaching feels the same about you! 😂

I'm sorry you don't think Autism in schools is worth talking about. Why not find a thread you are interested in to comment on? Or start your own if you have anything interesting to talk about?

@UndertheCedartree

This isn't a thread about autism in schools though. It's a thread where you want everyone to agree with your point of view. Honestly I think you would just chat to yourself at this point.

To your surprise, my head (who was wonderful) was sad to see me go and tried every which way to stop me from leaving. Sadly, we're in a teaching retention and recruitment crisis. Teachers are leaving because of the unreasonable pressures, which also come from parents. I resigned without a job to go to and now I work in a university with zero regrets!

Look, I know plenty of people have derailed it the way people always do on MN to try to push their idea of what happened on to the OP. I just don't really take kindly to that. But in between yes, we have been talking about it and a bit about dealing with your emotions when you have an autistic DC which was why I started the thread. I'm quite happy to agree to disagree, as I've had to spell out many times on this thread, most of the derailers on the other hand don't seem to be able to handle anyone disagreeing with them! But again I'm only talking about this because you brought it up.

And no, it's not to my suprise, atall. Why would it be, I don't know you remember? Unlike most on this thread I realise I know less about a strangers life than they know themselves!! 😂

I wonder if you have anything to say about the actual topic? Any advice around the sadness we feel when our autistic DC are devastated to miss out on something yet again?

It genuinely makes me feel so sad. And then I just feel so lonely. I don't really have anyone to talk about it to 😔

I can't believe this thread is still going...

OP, the issue with your belief that we all just need to read our emails more carefully and have more training is that every autistic child is just as unique as any other. All autistic children will have different triggers and different needs and different coping mechanisms. There is no 'one size fits all' approach to teaching children with autism. Getting more training would be great, but theory only takes you so far when you're dealing with real people.

Moreover, the 'plans' we get sent are often as useful as a chocolate teapot - 'Sarah likes to talk about teddy bears and doesn't like to share. Sarah gets anxious when she doesn't understand instructions. Sarah takes everything literally so make sure you don't use euphemisms' would be a typical 'plan' in my experience. All that tells me on a practical level is to be as literal as possible when giving instructions. If this fictional 'Sarah' walked into my classroom for the first time and I had told her I didn't know where she was sitting, there would be nothing in my plan to tell me that this would cause a meltdown.

Learning to get it right with an autistic student takes time, patience, and often trial and error. I am only just now - one whole term in - getting to grips with how to make the classroom a safe space for the severely autistic child in my form group. It's taken me a good three months to work out what works best for him. His 'plan' just tells me he doesn't like electric noises and to allow him to wear ear defenders if he gets overwhelmed. That's it. The rest I've had to figure out for myself. Thankfully his mum is very understanding and supportive and gets that we're all on a journey together to learn how best to help her child manage school, and when something's gone wrong, we chat about it, chalk it up to experience and learn from it rather than her accusing me of being rude or uncaring.

You seem to be unwilling to appreciate that your expectations of your daughter's teachers are a little unreasonable. Expecting a teacher to get it 100% right with your daughter, who by the sounds of it has considerable needs (you don't seem to think so, but in my experience, a child who has such a severe meltdown at school that they need to sleep it off is a child with high needs) in their very first lesson with her is utterly unreasonable. You need to allow the teachers time to get to know her.

You do also need to get over this strange idea you have that in professional settings, everyone is automatically able to switch off their personalities and be polite and kind all the time. For most people, the occasional snappy comment under pressure is going to come out from time to time. It doesn't make them bad people or rude people. It makes them human. Saying there is 'no excuse' for rudeness in a professional setting is idealistic in the extreme. We are not robots. All of us have the experience of being snapped at by someone in a professional setting, and I'm sure all of us have been able to appreciate that it was nothing to do with us and everything to do with the person having a bad day for whatever reason. We've all been there, and so none of us have the right to judge.

Of course you are not unreasonable to be sad about the fact that your child has missed out on something she was looking forward to. It must be incredibly difficult to watch her suffer as a result of her autism. But blaming her missing out on her Christmas lunch on a teacher who spoke to her a little harshly the previous day is unreasonable. It is not the teacher's fault that your daughter had a meltdown. The teacher had no intention of causing your daughter to have a meltdown. Your insistence on wanting to apportion specific blame rather than accepting that school is an unpredictable environment that is going to be challenging for your daughter no matter what interventions teachers put in place is the unreasonable approach teachers and other posters on this thread are trying to explain to you, and you just don't seem to see it.

@UndertheCedartree

'I wonder if you have anything to say about the actual topic? Any advice around the sadness we feel when our autistic DC are devastated to miss out on something yet again?'

Now that I've left teaching I now work in a senior role at a university, leading the team which makes reasonable adjustments for disabled students, including those with neurodiversity.

My advice would be that all children with neurodiversity need to be supported to deal as best as they can with the variety of people they will come into contact with. Unfortunately we live in a society which is formed on the medical model of disability. If your child enters HE or employment, the reasonable adjustments that can be made will be much more limited than at school. So in many ways it is beneficial for neurodiverse children to experience these sorts of scenarios, so they can begin to develop as many skills as they can to manage adulthood and the big wide world.

I'm also a qualified teacher and have taught every age range from nursery up to sixth form. Previously I have been an SEN advisor for the local authority, supporting parents through the EHCP process.

So actually, I work with autistic young adults every day at work and I know quite a lot about how this type of disability can affect people. I have neurodiverse friends. I see it day in, day out.

What I disagree with wholeheartedly is the blame being solely placed on the teacher for the resulting meltdown. However you're not willing to listen to views on this or see things from that perspective.

I feel for you as a SEN mum, I really do. But this thread is pointless, because you just want everyone to agree with your point of view.

The plan clearly tells you that saying that would not be helpful. I get you obviously don't understand that and I'm not judging you for that but it just shows how much further we need to go in educating teachers about autism.

Please, please understand I have said nothing to this teacher. I have made no complaint. I hold nothing against this teacher. I have worked in full cooperation with the school. I do not have an expectation they will get it 100% right. My only thought is she was having a bad day.

Now, it is true I don't think there is an excuse for bad manners. Probably because that is the standard I hold myself to. That is my belief. But that doesn't mean I think everyone holds themselves to that standard. Therefore, I know people will be rude sometimes etc. I think it's a real shame it impacted my DD. It actually breaks my heart 😥

But please understand, I, her teachers, her dad, her therapist, other professionals we all know her far better than you (who do not know her atall.) She is not seen as a DC with high needs hence she does not have a 1:1.Due to my autism I find it very aggravating when people try and make out they know more about my own DC than I do when logically that makes no sense.

And I know you think it is a strange idea but many other people have commented that they also remain polite in a professional setting. It's nothing to do with switching off your personality. I think you should understand that some of us are like that and it doesn't make us strange. Different things are more or less important to different people. Maybe it is because of how rudeness affects me that it's so important to me. Maybe for many NT people it's not so important because it doesn't affect them so bad. I don't know.

I know I see it differently to you and I understand that, but I just can't see it differently. My brain just can't do that. I'm not meaning to offend anyone with it. I've honestly not taken against this teacher atall. I just don't know how to explain it because everyone thinks I hate her or something which couldn't be further from the truth.

It’s patently obvious to anyone with a shred of empathy that you’re sad. I’m sorry you’re struggling with not having anyone to vent to. Did you manage to find any good Facebook groups?

There are some posters on here who are goading you which is unfair given you’ve said you also have ASD and you’re feeling sad your daughter had a bad experience.

Just to be clear, I do think you’ve projected your emotions onto the teacher but you’ve not done anything to the teacher that suggests you’re being unreasonable. I hope you are able to let it go and not be distracted by people on here.

Your DD had a bad day but you know what, she’s had good days too and adapted into her new school. I hope she’s proud of herself for managing these big changes.

Make her an epic Christmas lunch at home and remind her she is resilient. 🙂

To reiterate, as a primary school teacher I have 6 children in my class with Autism.

Their documents to support them are approximately 20 pages long each with tons of tiny writing and information.

I read them at the beginning of the year and regularly to remind myself, building a better picture the more I get to know each child.

I have 25 other children to get to know.

I can only imagine how many documents and differing needs a secondary school teacher needs to read and the amount of time needed to do so.

It's understandable that on first meeting they won't have a clear picture.

I don't feel that speaking sharply to any student is right but more education is not what most teachers need. It's support and time to get to know students and their needs.

@UndertheCedartree

I do fully get that what your teacher said to your DD was not helpful and that the tone was the problem. I do fully understand that you said her plan is specific but please be aware that it may well be specific and make sense for you because you know your daughter. How specific/useful the plan is from a teacher's perspective who doesn't know your daughter, however, I don't know, because I haven't seen it.

Please don't patronise me. I'm sure you don't intend to but you keep insisting that I don't know about autism and this is evidence of how much teachers need educating about autism. It's very patronising to keep saying this. We do know, we do understand, we do get it on a general level - I don't need 'educating about autism'. I'm not ignorant. I don't live under a rock. Half the kids in one of my classes are ND this year. It's part and parcel of mainstream teaching these days. We've all had to learn on the job. We don't need parents who only have experience of their own children telling us we need to get educated, thanks. We're all educating ourselves on a daily basis to try and do our best by the multiple kids with autism - all of whom present differently, by the way - that we teach.

What I am explaining to you is that from a teacher's perspective, every autistic child is different, and what is said in a plan for teachers about an autistic child's needs (in general, not specifically relating to your exact experience - I appreciate I'm talking to someone with autism here so you might be finding it difficult to separate comments referring to your specific situation and generic ones) - is not always as cut and dried and failsafe as you seem to think it is.

You keep saying you've been a teacher, but your comments prove otherwise. I can't imagine you've ever taught in a state secondary school because you seem to have no clue how they work.

I know you haven't taken against the teacher and that you haven't made a complaint. I haven't said that you have. I am merely pointing out that your expectation of the conduct and behaviour of teachers as being 100% polite, kind, cheery all day every day is UTTERLY unrealistic. Again, if you'd been a teacher in a primary or secondary school, you'd know this. Imagine how annoying your own child is when you're with them all day - how they push your buttons, repeatedly do things they shouldn't, repeatedly ignore instructions, repeatedly irritate or hurt their siblings - times that by 30 in a confined space with children you didn't give birth to. While you're also trying to teach them something at the same time. 99% of the time we're having a lovely time but 1% of the time someone's going to get told off. 1% of the time someone's going to be snapped at or shouted at because they're swinging their chair too close to a metal radiator that's going to crack their head open when you've told them three times already to stop, or they're still talking when you've asked them not to ten times already, or the fifth child in a row has asked you what the title is when you've already said it ten times and it's written on the bloody board!!! Kids are annoying! Especially en masse, and especially at 3.30 on a Friday afternoon!

If it's going to break your heart every time a teacher doesn't speak to your daughter with honey and sugar in their voice, then you're going to have a tough 7 years ahead of you. With kindness, you need to toughen up.

I appreciate you're autistic but surely you must be able to imagine how teachers can lose their rag sometimes. Especially as you have, apparently, been a teacher. Which - and I don't mean this in a horrible way, I really don't - I find incredibly hard to believe given your lack of ability to think outside of black/white binaries on this thread. If you have taught young people, it must have been hell for you.

You have said

The LSA heard what your daughter said to the teacher
The LSA heard what the teacher said to your daughter
The LSA dealt with it immediately

But also

she had to stand at the front of the class waiting for the others to sit down which really unsettled and upset her.

Sorry posted too soon

If the LSA dealt with it immediately why was your daughter waiting

If the LSA didn't deal with it immediately, why do you not have any issue with the LSA?

This.

100% this. All of it.

And again, this.

If your child enters HE or employment, the reasonable adjustments that can be made will be much more limited than at school. So in many ways it is beneficial for neurodiverse children to experience these sorts of scenarios, so they can begin to develop as many skills as they can to manage adulthood and the big wide world.

This is ableist and unhelpful. It’s also not my experience as an autistic person and the parent of autistic children. The adjustments made at HE and workplace level are much more flexible ime than school, which seems to be a uniquely rigid environment.

You also have control over the career you choose. Children have no choice about the environment they are placed in.

‘They need to learn to cope’ really is an ableist attitude.

They do have a class LSA in some classes here. Not in every class, obviously. But like the OP’s DD’s school, it seems, they will generally place children with ALN in a class that does have an LSA.

The thinking is that this is more effective than 1:1 TA’s and works better. And is a better use of resources. True or not, it’s how it is here.

Not in our LA. They don’t write 1:1 support into an IDP because ‘we don’t do 1:1 in secondary schools’. Including one of my dc who had 1:1 in primary.

It’s worded as ‘LSA support for x hours’. Which they have as there is an LSA there.

Jesus.

Except it doesn’t work that way in every school.

I'm not being unsympathetic but these things really do just happen. That's life.

OP. You are getting a ridiculously hard time here and I hope you find somewhere else to go for support. I suggest sunshine support on Facebook. Who have great advice legally as well as coffee and chat sessions.

The ableism here is astonishing. Whilst we all appreciate that schools are underfunded, SEN support isn’t there, etc etc, it’s also clear that individual teachers do need more awareness of neurodivergent conditions as difference rather than deficit.

I tend to find it hard to let things go, but I’d step away from this for your own peace of mind.

The vast majority of teachers know very little about neurodiversity, most know very little about dyslexia and that’s around 10-20% of students. Autism is under 1% with diagnosis and estimated 2% overall. Many of those are not in mainstream education. It worries me when people pertain to be so knowledgeable because ND is complex. It’s not hardly covered in teacher training. My personal experience is that the vast majority of teachers know very little about any of these conditions, the best ones are those who are willing to admit this and listen to parents and experts and the child themselves and at least try to make their life that bit easier. The understanding of ND in recent years has expanded infinitely, it’s pretty difficult to be knowledgeable and up to date as a practitioner working in the area.