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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To feel sad my DD missed Christmas dinner

811 replies

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 17:25

My 11yo DD is autistic and she has recently started at a new school. The school have been great in supporting her.

Sadly, she went into a Science class for the first time yesterday and as they have set seats she asked the teacher where she should sit. The teacher snapped at her that she didn't know and she had to stand at the front of the class waiting for the others to sit down which really unsettled and upset her.

Today was their Christmas dinner day and they could go in wearing pyjamas. She was really looking forward to this. But as we got closer to school this morning she got more and more distressed. Once in school she had a full on meltdown that went on for ages. Eventually she calmed down enough for me to leave and they took her up to the Learning support centre where she promptly fell asleep exhausted after her melt down. She missed her Christmas dinner! After a while they asked me to come and pick her up. I feel so sad for her. I'd spent a lot of time preparing her for the Christmas dinner and it was going to be a nice way to introduce her to the canteen. And she was so looking forward to it. All spoilt because a teacher took her bad mood out on her.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 01:45

cardibach · 21/12/2023 15:31

You just keep saying she hasn’t apologised and haven’t responded to me pointing out that you seem to have missed/misunderstood the bit where she did…

No, she didn't. And I have responded.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 02:02

CHRIS003 · 21/12/2023 17:20

Obviously it's not fine to be like this with any child - but autistic children are more
Likely to find a situation like this difficult because they have difficulty reading moods and situations-
In this situation NT child - miss ( teachers name ) looks like she is right mood so I am either going to keep my head down - sit down and be quiet or depending on the child - I am going to go out if my way to wind her up even further to make my day more interesting.
Autistic child - can't remember where I need to sit - Normal routine is to ask- going to ask so I don't get in to trouble - can't read teachers mood wonders why I have been shouted out - spells melt down. Not now but when I get home where I feel safe !
This is what you have to learn as a parent and explain to your daughter that with
The best will in the world unfortunately life is not going to run exactly how she would like it to - we would like to live in a world nobody ever got annoyed or upset but unfortunately you have to enable your autistic child to function in the real world so re assure that you will speak to the Learning support team and you will do your best to make sure that teachers are aware of her extra needs but also tell her that sometimes situations will occur and that she should come to you or her lsa and if it looks like their is a pattern with a particular teacher then you can take it further but honestly I think you should may be start the new term afresh in Jan and draw a line under this and try and not blow it out of proportion for your daughter

Show quote history

It wasn't that she couldn't remember where to sit, she'd never been in that class before so had never been told where to sit.

I'm not sure about if not being able to read the mood was the issue. But my DD is well aware life will not always run the way you want it to. She has been through very traumatic events so is more aware of this than the average 11yo.

All I have said to my DD about this particular event was maybe the teacher was having a bad day and hopefully she will be having a better one next time. So I don't honestly feel I've blown it out of proportion. We will definitely start the term afresh in January.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 02:06

winewolfhowls · 21/12/2023 18:16

Not sure if this point has been made yet but sounds to me like the lsa could have been a little more proactive in this situation, perhaps reassured your daughter that she would find out the seat or suggest a time out and return to a settled room? A good LSA is like gold dust and they buffer the school experience for students and and proactive at preventing situations from arising. They should be paid at least double the amount they are.I appreciate your DD is new so hasn't got a relationship with lsa yet but I hope it reassures you to hear how much help they can be.

Yes, they are amazing. The Learning support team has been a massive support and my DD has begun building relationships with them. The LSA did step in. But my DD had managed navigating asking the teacher where to sit in every class previously so the LSA wasn't primed to expect an issue. Yes, it is very reassuring to hear how helpful they can be. I'm sure they will continue to be with DD.

OP posts:
WaitingForMojo · 22/12/2023 02:06

boomboom22 it doesn’t work that way in my children’s secondary. TA’s are placed in a class, not with a particular child. Usually because there are several children with ALN in the class.

Perhaps it works that way at the OP’s DD’s school too. It’s not the same in every school. Of our 3 local secondaries only one places TA’s 1:1 at all.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 02:08

Mommywomb · 22/12/2023 00:55

@UndertheCedartree Fair enough! Yes you are not being unreasonable at all to feel sad that the DD missed the Christmas Dinner. :( these are rare occasions for the whole class to enjoy. Sorry she has to miss it! I hope next year or any upcoming event, is better! Best of luck!

Thank you so much!

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 02:14

WaitingForMojo · 22/12/2023 02:06

boomboom22 it doesn’t work that way in my children’s secondary. TA’s are placed in a class, not with a particular child. Usually because there are several children with ALN in the class.

Perhaps it works that way at the OP’s DD’s school too. It’s not the same in every school. Of our 3 local secondaries only one places TA’s 1:1 at all.

Thank you. I know at the school she was originally offered they don't have LSAs in classes in the same way. Hence I chose this school as she'd always have an LSA in her class to assist.

OP posts:
Emma8888 · 22/12/2023 03:28

You've changed what you have said several times. You say she snapped 'I don't know' at your child but also said 'The teacher admitted snapping to the class. The LSA was able to confirm that she snapped and that she said she was in a bad mood.' And also that she told the class she was in a bad mood. So did she in fact snap at one child, or a class of children, or a group of children? If at one child why would she justify to an entire class of children - that makes no sense. I can absolutely see multiple children all asking a teaching different things at once and 'I don't know' being a way to halt the questions to allow things to be taken one at a time and that would then make sense to say to the class 'sorry, I'm in a bad mood'. One child, no, it makes no sense to address the class.

Additionally, and assuming for a moment it was directed only at DD, one thing teachers are taught when dealing with ND is to give short factual answers. I don't know is a short and factual answer. What you cannot know is what else was going on e.g.

  • you say your child was polite. How do you know? Maybe the teacher was already dealing with another child and your DD was interrupting her repeatedly, albeit with 'excuse me miss'?
  • maybe she was dealing with other children with seating issues first, due to their own issues and 'I don't know' was absolutely the correct answer in the moment. Maybe the best laid seating plan became unstuck when Kerry refused to sit next to Nicola and she was adjusting on the fly?
  • you don't tell ND people to hang on (some can interpret it as literally needing to hold on to something like on a bus which would cause issues for some)
  • you don't tell ND to wait a minute as again it can be taken incredibly literally and cause a melt down if the minute is not met
  • maybe as they said 'I don't know' the teacher was looking across the room to the LSA for help not remembering if DD has to sit alone / by a window etc. and projected her voice loudly to get the attention of the LSA, not the DD?

IMO the LSA is the one who is responsible for ensuring a new child is helped as a priority, including liaising with the teacher ahead of time to find out what seat and I expect that a teacher may also. You say the LSA stepped in when "the teacher was struggling" - they should not have let it get to that point, when the LSA's literal role is to support ND to allow the teacher to get on with the rest of the class and getting children seated is likely priority 1.

Yes, there are better ways it could have been handled. Such as the LSA getting her settled before anyone else arrived at class after liaising with the teacher. Yes the teacher could have explained at length 'This class has assigned seats but until everyone is in their seat I don't know where there will be a space, I need you to stand there until everyone else has arrived, then I will see what space you can be assigned and tell you which one' but frankly, the complexity would have triggered some ND people.

Like it or not, your child is one of hundreds the teacher has to work with. And given there is an LSA in every class it also sounds like the teacher has many different needs they have to juggle as well. You are very clear the school doesn't have any behavioural issues when another poster suggested that- how on earth could you know? I have NEVER come across a school that doesn't have any issues - lots are very good at hiding them, but I can't name a single secondary school teacher (and I know many) who have not been sworn at, called names, been personally insulted about their appearance / sexuality/ age / weight etc. or in some instances been physically assaulted.

AlphaBravoCharlie1 · 22/12/2023 03:50

OP, I also think a lot of these replies are very harsh and understand as a parent of a child on the spectrum. You alone are across all the details. It does sound that you think it could have been handled better. Do have a word with the SENCO. And hopefully they are going to start the new year off in a good way which encourages your daughter back into school.

Sherrystrull · 22/12/2023 06:37

Op, I don't understand why you think it's ok for the LSA not to be with your DC and to be supporting other children, but it's not ok for the teacher to be supporting other children and ask your DC to wait a moment.

I don't agree with anyone speaking harshly to children but you seem to understand the LSA might have others to deal with and your DC will have to wait for her time but not the teacher.

Happilyobtuse · 22/12/2023 07:09

UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 01:06

You don't seem to realise that a 'terse comment' to a autistic child is the equivalent of you shouting at them. How will she cope? Probably in the same way she coped when it happened at school.

I can't say that people are rude to me all the time. I think it is quite rare. But I imagine if you are the type of person that doesn't think it matters to be polite you probably get people's backs up and then they are rude back!

It's such a bad example to be rude to your pupils!

That doesn't mean I don't expect people to not always be polite and friendly at school. And obviously as I've detailed I've let my DD know that too.

Show quote history

You are obviously spoiling for a fight, sorry but I am not interested. I never made any personal attacks on you and I think you have shown your true colours. As I said previously, it is NOT only an autistic child who might not like the way someone spoke to them, but all children need to learn that this is part and parcel of life. You can argue till you are blue in the face but it won’t change anything, we live in a less than perfect world. You are not doing your child any favours by blowing this out of proportion.

adviceneeded1990 · 22/12/2023 07:09

@UndertheCedartree of course it’s one interpretation- the LSA. You know that neurodivergent people can misinterpret tone of voice easily. And of course I would want to know but we use the ABLe framework so I’d have read your daughters plan prior to her arrival in my class.

More than one thing can be wrong at once - in my opinion the teacher should have handled a child with autism more sensitively and the head and the LSA should have been more professional after the fact. Both those things can be true.

cardibach · 22/12/2023 11:50

UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 01:31

I didn't say that was my only interaction with the head. I said quite clearly I spoke to the head later. But what I did say was I did not complain about the teacher, nor was I in a meeting with the Head about the teacher.

I've not heard anything about an apology. DD didn't hear an apology. There are many ways you could say you were in a bad mood that don't involve an apology.

That's great you do that but not everyone is the same!

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I appreciate that some ND people are extremely literal, and I assume this applies to you and your DD, since the only reason a teacher might say she was in a bad mood would be to apologise for any fall out. And like I say it doesn’t even mean she thought she did snap - just that it’s possible she might have. Your DD has missed an apology, maybe through no fault of her own, maybe because she was stressed and upset or as part of her ND. But it happened. Because she says the teacher mentioned her bad mood to the class. We do this as part of teaching young people to manage moods and mental health - openness and the acceptance that sometimes people aren’t at their best.

cardibach · 22/12/2023 12:09

UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 00:57

Why would I realise something that's not true?

I've explained her class always has an LSA. Not sure how clearer I can put it really?

Show quote history

There are sometimes LSAs with a class to assist more than one pupil if their needs are lower (though most will be one to one). However a new student who is ND would be higher need and the LSA should have focussed on her. If, as she says, she felt the teacher snapped then she should have come to support your DD, perhaps take her out for a minute or explain to her what was happening. You keep saying support is excellent in this school, but the evidence you have given about this LSA doesn’t make me think that’s the case really. She didn’t help a distressed, new ND student after apparently witnessing something which she could predict would cause an issue, then she spoke about the teacher in front of you and your DD in a way which is very unprofessional.

cardibach · 22/12/2023 12:12

UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 01:15

It was the Head who asked the LSA just responded. It was all over quickly and done quite discretely, they probably weren't aware I heard/saw what happened. I'm just very observant due to my autism.

Well, yes, but more than one person agreed. It wasn't one interpretation was it? And the point is if a certain tone is difficult for a certain DC it is fine to raise it. I'd want to know, wouldn't you? You'd raise a concern with your union if you were given some information about autistic DC or a particular DC?? I find that really strange. I'm glad that other teachers said they'd want to know.

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This is very contradictory. You said you were in the head’s office explaining what happened and the LSA gave her opinion too. Now you are saying they probably didn’t know you noticed? Really? Sitting together having a conversation?

cardibach · 22/12/2023 12:14

WaitingForMojo · 22/12/2023 02:06

boomboom22 it doesn’t work that way in my children’s secondary. TA’s are placed in a class, not with a particular child. Usually because there are several children with ALN in the class.

Perhaps it works that way at the OP’s DD’s school too. It’s not the same in every school. Of our 3 local secondaries only one places TA’s 1:1 at all.

They are probably contravening law then. Many pupils will have an entitlement to 1-1 support as part of their statement/support package.

Boomboom22 · 22/12/2023 12:19

cardibach · 22/12/2023 12:14

They are probably contravening law then. Many pupils will have an entitlement to 1-1 support as part of their statement/support package.

Show quote history

That sounds extremely unlikely. Schools don't have the funds to do this. Maybe more than one child needs 1-1 so they put only one lsa in. Usually the 1-1 may be different in different classes and not at all in classes the child copes well with. Quite often the child is not aware they are their 1-1, often they don't even know they are sen in yr7 as some parents don't like labels. Which I don't necessarily disagree with. Parents really don't truly know what happens and what the senco and head say may not be practiced.

Edit that it to op, agree with cardibach.

cardibach · 22/12/2023 12:27

Boomboom22 · 22/12/2023 12:19

That sounds extremely unlikely. Schools don't have the funds to do this. Maybe more than one child needs 1-1 so they put only one lsa in. Usually the 1-1 may be different in different classes and not at all in classes the child copes well with. Quite often the child is not aware they are their 1-1, often they don't even know they are sen in yr7 as some parents don't like labels. Which I don't necessarily disagree with. Parents really don't truly know what happens and what the senco and head say may not be practiced.

Edit that it to op, agree with cardibach.

Edited
Show quote history

I’m not sure what your edit means. I can assure you some students are entitled to 1-1 and schools get into bother if they don’t get it (which is why there is so little general support). Source: 35 years of experience in secondary education in England and Wales, in both private and state sectors.

Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 12:54

Emma8888 · 22/12/2023 03:28

You've changed what you have said several times. You say she snapped 'I don't know' at your child but also said 'The teacher admitted snapping to the class. The LSA was able to confirm that she snapped and that she said she was in a bad mood.' And also that she told the class she was in a bad mood. So did she in fact snap at one child, or a class of children, or a group of children? If at one child why would she justify to an entire class of children - that makes no sense. I can absolutely see multiple children all asking a teaching different things at once and 'I don't know' being a way to halt the questions to allow things to be taken one at a time and that would then make sense to say to the class 'sorry, I'm in a bad mood'. One child, no, it makes no sense to address the class.

Additionally, and assuming for a moment it was directed only at DD, one thing teachers are taught when dealing with ND is to give short factual answers. I don't know is a short and factual answer. What you cannot know is what else was going on e.g.

  • you say your child was polite. How do you know? Maybe the teacher was already dealing with another child and your DD was interrupting her repeatedly, albeit with 'excuse me miss'?
  • maybe she was dealing with other children with seating issues first, due to their own issues and 'I don't know' was absolutely the correct answer in the moment. Maybe the best laid seating plan became unstuck when Kerry refused to sit next to Nicola and she was adjusting on the fly?
  • you don't tell ND people to hang on (some can interpret it as literally needing to hold on to something like on a bus which would cause issues for some)
  • you don't tell ND to wait a minute as again it can be taken incredibly literally and cause a melt down if the minute is not met
  • maybe as they said 'I don't know' the teacher was looking across the room to the LSA for help not remembering if DD has to sit alone / by a window etc. and projected her voice loudly to get the attention of the LSA, not the DD?

IMO the LSA is the one who is responsible for ensuring a new child is helped as a priority, including liaising with the teacher ahead of time to find out what seat and I expect that a teacher may also. You say the LSA stepped in when "the teacher was struggling" - they should not have let it get to that point, when the LSA's literal role is to support ND to allow the teacher to get on with the rest of the class and getting children seated is likely priority 1.

Yes, there are better ways it could have been handled. Such as the LSA getting her settled before anyone else arrived at class after liaising with the teacher. Yes the teacher could have explained at length 'This class has assigned seats but until everyone is in their seat I don't know where there will be a space, I need you to stand there until everyone else has arrived, then I will see what space you can be assigned and tell you which one' but frankly, the complexity would have triggered some ND people.

Like it or not, your child is one of hundreds the teacher has to work with. And given there is an LSA in every class it also sounds like the teacher has many different needs they have to juggle as well. You are very clear the school doesn't have any behavioural issues when another poster suggested that- how on earth could you know? I have NEVER come across a school that doesn't have any issues - lots are very good at hiding them, but I can't name a single secondary school teacher (and I know many) who have not been sworn at, called names, been personally insulted about their appearance / sexuality/ age / weight etc. or in some instances been physically assaulted.

I've not changed what I've said. She did snap at my DD. She did do the other things. A teacher can do more than one thing over a 100 minute class! I just ask DD and she says she later shouted at some other girls.

I'm not sure why you're not understanding it wasn't the words it was how it was said. Additionally it wasn't good to just say I don't know as it doesn't give DD any information about what to do or if she will ever know.

I know she was polite as I asked the LSA. I've only included things I actually know as facts. My DD is very shy she would have never interrupted or repeatedly asked. It would have taken a lot for her to just ask once.

There are other ways to say 'hang on'!! 😂 Could you wait a moment while I find the seating plan. Short answers are not good they need to properly explain what to expect. But your point is exactly why you should not say I don't know - it could mean you will never know. And yes, you could say wait a moment or as I suggested just stay with me while I work out where you can sit. I don't think it's all that difficult. And the LSA didn't think that was what the teacher did. She didn't just project her voice she said it rudely. Not sure why you're trying to tie yourself in knots trying to come up with a different explanation when many teachers on here say they snap at pupils!

At the end of the day no other teachers had an issue seating DD and if the teacher needed help they could politely ask the LSA. It's just basic communication. As I said no other teacher struggled with this so the LSA probably prioritised dealing with another child in that moment. At the end of the day the teacher needs everyone seated to be able to get on with the rest of the class so it was in her interests to sort out where she wanted DD sat. I think it was unfair for the LSA to have to get DD early from lunch or whatever, to get DD settled in this class when there were no previous problems and this was her 4th week. Was the LSA to know the teacher was in a bad mood and needed extra support?

I would hope a teacher would know there's a middle ground between snapping 'I don't know!' to an autistic DC and giving that lengthy explanation! Not sure why you're struggling with this. I don't know if you're a teacher but if you are not sure why you'd find it so difficult. Perhaps speak to some autistic colleagues if you need help in this area?

I'm aware the teacher deals with many students as I did and now I deal with hundreds of patients. I get it's not always easy but good manners would have made the world of difference. Just that small thing. How I know about behavioural issues I've already said. I did a load of research to find the right school for DD. Including Ofsted reports, open evenings, I spoke to the Head, the Learning support centre, I spoke to parents of DC at the school, students at the school, teachers at the school. I've observed a lot too. The reputation of it being an extremely well behaved school as well as excellent results appears to be correct. I can't name many teachers at this school who've not experienced that. I know another school like it that I worked at. These issues aren't universal. The school she got offered was like that and yes good at hiding from some parents but I did lots of research as explained. I'm not saying there is never, ever any behavioural issues at this school but they are extremely rare.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 12:56

Sherrystrull · 22/12/2023 06:37

Op, I don't understand why you think it's ok for the LSA not to be with your DC and to be supporting other children, but it's not ok for the teacher to be supporting other children and ask your DC to wait a moment.

I don't agree with anyone speaking harshly to children but you seem to understand the LSA might have others to deal with and your DC will have to wait for her time but not the teacher.

I would have had no problem with that. However, the teacher was rude to my DD and did not ask her to wait.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 13:00

Happilyobtuse · 22/12/2023 07:09

You are obviously spoiling for a fight, sorry but I am not interested. I never made any personal attacks on you and I think you have shown your true colours. As I said previously, it is NOT only an autistic child who might not like the way someone spoke to them, but all children need to learn that this is part and parcel of life. You can argue till you are blue in the face but it won’t change anything, we live in a less than perfect world. You are not doing your child any favours by blowing this out of proportion.

Show quote history

Why would I want a fight?? 😕 And I didn't make any personal attacks on you - I think you must have misunderstood?

How is telling my DD the teacher was probably having a bad day blowing it out of proportion? A few people have said this but none have been able to explain. Can you?

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 13:04

adviceneeded1990 · 22/12/2023 07:09

@UndertheCedartree of course it’s one interpretation- the LSA. You know that neurodivergent people can misinterpret tone of voice easily. And of course I would want to know but we use the ABLe framework so I’d have read your daughters plan prior to her arrival in my class.

More than one thing can be wrong at once - in my opinion the teacher should have handled a child with autism more sensitively and the head and the LSA should have been more professional after the fact. Both those things can be true.

Well, it's 2 isn't it? DD and LSA.

But yes, I take your point in general. And yes, I agree more than one thing can be true. I get why you are saying that about the Head and LSA as you weren't there. I have to say they did come across professional as the short exchange was just between them. But I get it is hard for me to really get that across.

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 13:09

cardibach · 22/12/2023 11:50

I appreciate that some ND people are extremely literal, and I assume this applies to you and your DD, since the only reason a teacher might say she was in a bad mood would be to apologise for any fall out. And like I say it doesn’t even mean she thought she did snap - just that it’s possible she might have. Your DD has missed an apology, maybe through no fault of her own, maybe because she was stressed and upset or as part of her ND. But it happened. Because she says the teacher mentioned her bad mood to the class. We do this as part of teaching young people to manage moods and mental health - openness and the acceptance that sometimes people aren’t at their best.

Show quote history

We'll have to agree to disagree then as I can think of many ways a teacher could say they were in a bad mood that isn't an apology! I'm surprised you think that is the only reason someone says they're in a bad mood and you know exactly what happened. It's normally ND people being rigid! 😂

OP posts:
Original poster
UndertheCedartree · 22/12/2023 13:11

cardibach · 22/12/2023 12:09

There are sometimes LSAs with a class to assist more than one pupil if their needs are lower (though most will be one to one). However a new student who is ND would be higher need and the LSA should have focussed on her. If, as she says, she felt the teacher snapped then she should have come to support your DD, perhaps take her out for a minute or explain to her what was happening. You keep saying support is excellent in this school, but the evidence you have given about this LSA doesn’t make me think that’s the case really. She didn’t help a distressed, new ND student after apparently witnessing something which she could predict would cause an issue, then she spoke about the teacher in front of you and your DD in a way which is very unprofessional.

Show quote history

The LSA did come to assist. I've repeated that many, many times. And yes, the support is excellent. And I've also repeated many, many times she did not speak about the teacher in front of us.

OP posts:
adviceneeded1990 · 22/12/2023 14:06

But she did speak about the teacher in front of you because you heard! In earshot is in front of you. Professionally, that discussion would have been held behind a closed door, not anywhere near a public area where parents/children might overhear.

Put it another way - would you like a teacher/LSA to discuss your DD having a bad day in a public area of the school where others might hear? Or would you expect that chat to happen privately?

Sherrystrull · 22/12/2023 14:49

Op, what words did the teacher use to your dc?

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