Page 16 | To think being asked for money at work like this is not ok?

xmasmoney · 2023-12-19T08:48:51+00:00

I don’t know if I’m feeling sensitive about money and actually this is totally reasonable… We have one dc in full time nursery costing 1500 a month. I work for a professional services company and we have a lot of support staff. We are seen to be paid huge money. However I am only on 63k and we are struggling so much at the moment, some people more senior are on well over this with grown up dc. A month ago a Teams message was started by someone senior saying does anyone want to pitch in for a gift for the secretaries. I found this very inappropriate on teams as it was difficult to say no in a group chat. I know the answer in practice is just don’t give anything if you can’t afford it but I’ve since been chased on a separate teams message asking if I am contributing and when I ignored that I got an email. I feel this puts so much pressure on people and think it is massively inappropriate thing to do at work? Am I being a dick?

Doingtheboxerbeat · 19/12/2023 14:02

SecondUsername4me · 19/12/2023 13:55

Errrr...don't secretaries working ft also need full time childcare too OP? At over 1k pcm? And they probs earn a third of your wage.

I'm just wondering about the folk who are serving your coffee, your meal deal and your grocery shop when you are living in London - like where do these people live and what are they paying to travel into London?
If only the OP omitted the word 'only' , then this thread would have been a lot more sympathetic.

pretzelbreath · 19/12/2023 14:05

I think the OP's choice to use 'only £63k' was very deliberate actually. It's certainly caused quite a stir up on MN on a Tuesday morning.

Gettingbysomehow · 19/12/2023 14:05

I totally ignore any requests for money at work.

Gettingbysomehow · 19/12/2023 14:07

Grey rock....unless its a friend. I can't afford to give money for people I don't know. I'm not on 63K though but I can imagine London could eat that in one sitting with a big mortgage.

Missingmyusername · 19/12/2023 14:16

SecondUsername4me · 19/12/2023 13:55

Errrr...don't secretaries working ft also need full time childcare too OP? At over 1k pcm? And they probs earn a third of your wage.

Never mind. They’ll have the chocolate to eat🤣- that’s a joke btw!

FreebieHound · 19/12/2023 14:16

MargotBamborough · 19/12/2023 12:26

But it is economically illiterate to splutter about someone being on "nearly half" the OP's salary without taking into account any relevant factors about the tax system, the benefits system, the student loan repayment system or the housing market.

And that's even assuming that these people on 30k actually have full time childcare costs which they don't get any help with. Nothing in the OP's posts indicates that this is the case.

So the reality is that the gap in disposable income between the OP and an admin assistant on 30k may be minimal or indeed non existent.

It is definitely economically illiterate not to be able to understand why the OP isn't rolling in it on a salary of 63k with high taxes, student loan repayments, full time childcare costs, credit card debt, a mortgage and a partner who doesn't earn very much, and why she might have £58 in her bank account in the week before Christmas and not feel able to contribute to a gift for someone on £30k who may well have far more in their bank account than she does.

None of this judgement and none of these most likely incorrect assumptions about the OP's lifestyle are going to change the fact that she is currently skint.

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Incorrect assumptions? You've made a fair few yourself. No doubt this will astound you, but many people working in admin/other low-income jobs are also graduates with student loans to repay - and the lowest threshold for this just over £22k per annum. Some have children, and those who don't are subsidising those who do, just like any other childless people working full-time and paying tax.

I can certainly imagine/understand why a homeowner whose household income is well over the national average and has only one child might have no money left at the end of the month, but I don't think that person is justified in being mean about a small contribution to a Christmas gift for support staff.

MargotBamborough · 19/12/2023 14:20

Boomboom22 · 19/12/2023 14:01

But not quite enough to realise those with normal 25 to 50k salaries also pay the same for nursery, food, mortgage etc with no more help except child benefit.

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The point is that they don't all have exactly the same expenses.

Your point would be a valid one if the OP had specified that the admin staff whose Christmas gift she is being asked to contribute to all have exactly the same circumstances she does only their salaries are lower.

People's actual and varied circumstances are so different and the factor that makes the biggest difference in reality is your age, not your gross salary.

If the OP's net take home pay is 3500 per month and she pays 1500 in nursery costs, that leaves 2000 per month. According to the Money Supermarket mortgage calculator if you have an outstanding mortgage of 220k, which isn't even that high considering the OP's salary and what sort of property that amount will buy in an expensive part of the country, she would be paying around 1250 per month in mortgage costs at today's rates, leaving just 750 for everything else including bills, food, transport etc. We don't know how much her partner is earning, but if it's only a small salary it's not actually that hard to see where their money might be going each month and why there is nothing left over.

Whereas one of her colleagues on 25-30k might be in their 50s and have no young children and their mortgage paid off, or have a higher earning partner meaning their household income isn't that different to the OP's, or be entitled to child benefit and possibly even universal credit to help with their childcare costs.

So no, you cannot assume that the OP's lower earning colleagues have the same outgoings as her, or that they are not getting help either via the benefits system or their family support network that the OP does not have.

MargotBamborough · 19/12/2023 14:23

FreebieHound · 19/12/2023 14:16

Incorrect assumptions? You've made a fair few yourself. No doubt this will astound you, but many people working in admin/other low-income jobs are also graduates with student loans to repay - and the lowest threshold for this just over £22k per annum. Some have children, and those who don't are subsidising those who do, just like any other childless people working full-time and paying tax.

I can certainly imagine/understand why a homeowner whose household income is well over the national average and has only one child might have no money left at the end of the month, but I don't think that person is justified in being mean about a small contribution to a Christmas gift for support staff.

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Paying 22 quid a month towards your student loan is not the same as paying 300+ quid a month towards your student loan, is it?

Honestly. If you can understand why someone in the OP's position might have no money left at the end of the month, surely you can understand why someone with no money left at the end of the month does not want to contribute money they don't have towards a Christmas present fund on the basis of someone else's assumption that they can afford it.

myphoneisbroken · 19/12/2023 14:47

MargotBamborough · 19/12/2023 13:15

@xmasmoney If you are still reading, you may want to consider raising this with the organiser in a polite way.

Something like this:

"I know it is traditional for senior members of staff to contribute to Christmas gifts for admin staff on the grounds that they aren't as well paid as us. However, taking the view that senior staff are well paid enough to afford this is somewhat simplistic, especially in the current economic climate. My salary is lower than that of other senior people due to my level of experience, and I am the main breadwinner supporting my family with very high outgoings. This year I really have no spare cash at all, but feel awkward saying so or declining to contribute because on paper I earn a decent salary. I don't know whether anyone else is in the same boat but I think it is increasingly difficult to make assumptions about what people can afford, especially given people's vastly different circumstances in terms of housing costs, childcare and student loans, which are largely age dependent. I also think that if admin staff are seen to be more deserving or more in need of a gift at Christmas due to their lower salaries, it will make a bigger difference to them if the business can ensure that they are getting inflation beating pay rises each year and ideally some sort of Christmas bonus. It is far more transparent to thank admin staff officially, taking into account what the business can afford based on known and transparent factors, than it is to ask individual members of staff to contribute when their own financial circumstances are not known."

Oh my god DO NOT send this message - it is the worst sort of preachy virtue signalling (and I speak as a preachy virtue signaller myself). If I received this from a member of staff, my eyes would roll themselves out of their sockets.

You have two good choices: give a fiver, or reply to say "I'm sitting this one out".

MargotBamborough · 19/12/2023 14:51

myphoneisbroken · 19/12/2023 14:47

Oh my god DO NOT send this message - it is the worst sort of preachy virtue signalling (and I speak as a preachy virtue signaller myself). If I received this from a member of staff, my eyes would roll themselves out of their sockets.

You have two good choices: give a fiver, or reply to say "I'm sitting this one out".

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That's just your opinion though.

I think it is a reasonable point that the business itself should be thanking its staff at Christmas, particularly the lower paid ones, or ideally paying them properly in the first place.

Making assumptions about which staff are deserving or in need of a little extra at Christmas and which staff can afford to put their hands in their pockets to pay for it is inherently problematic, especially in the current climate.

LightToTheWorld · 19/12/2023 15:00

No one has assumed OP is able or willing to contribute though- they have asked a question. She hasn't answered it so they've asked again.

It's a reasonable assumption that senior staff have the ability to say yes or no. No one cares whether OP contributes or not- someone has just been given the job of doing the collection and wants to cross her off the list one way or the other. They certainly don't want a lecture on the cost of living.

MargotBamborough · 19/12/2023 15:04

LightToTheWorld · 19/12/2023 15:00

No one has assumed OP is able or willing to contribute though- they have asked a question. She hasn't answered it so they've asked again.

It's a reasonable assumption that senior staff have the ability to say yes or no. No one cares whether OP contributes or not- someone has just been given the job of doing the collection and wants to cross her off the list one way or the other. They certainly don't want a lecture on the cost of living.

If you don't want a lecture on the cost of living, don't bloody chase people if you've asked them once and they haven't responded!

Vintageport · 19/12/2023 15:08

MargotBamborough · 19/12/2023 11:59

All of this.

To add the above...

Based on the limited information we have it sounds like the OP is most likely in her early 30s. I'm basing that on the fact that she has a young child and is still making student loan repayments on a salary of 63K, which suggests that she hasn't been earning 63k for all that long and started university between 2006 and 2011. If she had started university before that she would have paid lower tuition fees and on her salary would most likely have repaid the full loan by now. It is possible that she started university in or after 2012 and has an absolutely massive student loan, but that would make her most likely under 30 which is pretty young to be a home owner with a child if you are in a graduate job. So she is most likely between 30 and 36.

If my guess about her age is correct, she probably did not get on the property ladder all that long ago, and she probably paid a high price for a starter home within commuting distance of her job.

If she didn't get on the property ladder all that long ago then she probably doesn't have a lot of equity in her home, making her very vulnerable to rising interest rates. If you owe hundreds of thousands on your mortgage when your fix comes to an end and your interest rate suddenly goes up by 4%, that's going to hit you much harder than if you are, say, 20 years older and only earning 33k in your admin role but bought a house when property was much more affordable and your mortgage is all but paid off.

There is a reason why nursery fees are such a killer for people like the OP. They earn the kind of salary that makes the economically illiterate on Mumsnet say, "But you're RICH, stop complaining!" and make stupid jokes about tiny violins, but you get nothing in the way of state benefits to help you pay these costs, you're paying a huge marginal tax rate including student loan contributions and your housing costs are much higher than they would have been if you'd been born even ten years earlier.

People not in this age and income bracket have a completely unrealistic idea of what sort of lifestyle people like the OP are living, and comments about "prep school" (ffs!) make that abundantly clear.

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But you do understand that all of that applies to people earning a lot less than £63000?

Other than the income tax they will still have absolutely massive student loans, accommodation costs higher than if you were born 10 years earlier etc.

I don’t understand why people keep making the argument that you don’t have much more disposable income on £63,000 than on much less- if this were true why would anyone go to the bother of securing a high income?! They could earn less, pay less tax and still have a similar lifestyle.

Lou670 · 19/12/2023 15:11

It depends if you like to receive a gift when there is a whip round for an occasion such as a birthday. If you don't want to participate then just say no to them but be prepared for other staff members to have taken a mental note of it. I feel sorry for the secretary if others are like you and if they are begrudgingly contributing. I would rather not receive a gift that was not given in kindness.

MargotBamborough · 19/12/2023 15:13

Vintageport · 19/12/2023 15:08

But you do understand that all of that applies to people earning a lot less than £63000?

Other than the income tax they will still have absolutely massive student loans, accommodation costs higher than if you were born 10 years earlier etc.

I don’t understand why people keep making the argument that you don’t have much more disposable income on £63,000 than on much less- if this were true why would anyone go to the bother of securing a high income?! They could earn less, pay less tax and still have a similar lifestyle.

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Why are you assuming that all the people on lower incomes have the same costs the OP does?

Does a 50 year old secretary with no minor children and no student loan have the same outgoings as the OP?

No, she does not.

And it's not the size of the student loan that matters, but the size of the monthly repayment.

Someone on 25k with a student loan will be making monthly repayments equivalent to the cost of a couple of drinks in the pub, not upwards of 300 quid.

This is what I mean about economic illiteracy.

Teder · 19/12/2023 15:20

MargotBamborough · 19/12/2023 15:13

Why are you assuming that all the people on lower incomes have the same costs the OP does?

Does a 50 year old secretary with no minor children and no student loan have the same outgoings as the OP?

No, she does not.

And it's not the size of the student loan that matters, but the size of the monthly repayment.

Someone on 25k with a student loan will be making monthly repayments equivalent to the cost of a couple of drinks in the pub, not upwards of 300 quid.

This is what I mean about economic illiteracy.

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You cannot lecture about economic literacy and say “someone on 25k will be paying the equivalent of a couple of drinks”. It’s proportionate to your salary.

You need to look at like for like. Let’s assume a single women aged 30 (no dependents) earns £25k and another single woman aged 30 (no dependency) earns £50k. They work for the same company. Both need a bedroom and roof over their head. Of course it’ll be tighter on the lower salary!

I am very senior in my team and significantly out earn some other people. I wouldn’t start harping on about my student loan (which rises as my salary does!) nor the cost of housing because we all have the same. It would be incredibly insensitive.

enchantedsquirrelwood · 19/12/2023 15:22

You have two good choices: give a fiver, or reply to say "I'm sitting this one out"

Or a 3rd, simply ignore and delete the emails.

LightToTheWorld · 19/12/2023 15:24

MargotBamborough · 19/12/2023 15:04

If you don't want a lecture on the cost of living, don't bloody chase people if you've asked them once and they haven't responded!

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Plenty of people appreciate being chased because they're busy and haven't got round to donating. It really isn't that hard to say "no thanks" if you don't want to, I have no idea why OP has no done this.

MargotBamborough · 19/12/2023 15:33

Teder · 19/12/2023 15:20

You cannot lecture about economic literacy and say “someone on 25k will be paying the equivalent of a couple of drinks”. It’s proportionate to your salary.

You need to look at like for like. Let’s assume a single women aged 30 (no dependents) earns £25k and another single woman aged 30 (no dependency) earns £50k. They work for the same company. Both need a bedroom and roof over their head. Of course it’ll be tighter on the lower salary!

I am very senior in my team and significantly out earn some other people. I wouldn’t start harping on about my student loan (which rises as my salary does!) nor the cost of housing because we all have the same. It would be incredibly insensitive.

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We are talking about student loan repayments. It's proportionate to your salary above the repayment threshold.

Someone on 25k repays 22 quid a month on Plan 1 or zero quid a month on Plan 2.

Someone on 63k repays 307 quid a month on Plan 1 or 267 quid a month on Plan 2.

"You need to look at like for like" is literally what I have been saying all along in this thread.

Comparing someone on 63k who is making student loan repayments, paying 1500 per month in nursery fees and has a large mortgage with not much equity in their home yet with someone on 30k who is not in the same situation is not comparing like for like, is it?

Vintageport · 19/12/2023 15:39

MargotBamborough · 19/12/2023 15:13

Why are you assuming that all the people on lower incomes have the same costs the OP does?

Does a 50 year old secretary with no minor children and no student loan have the same outgoings as the OP?

No, she does not.

And it's not the size of the student loan that matters, but the size of the monthly repayment.

Someone on 25k with a student loan will be making monthly repayments equivalent to the cost of a couple of drinks in the pub, not upwards of 300 quid.

This is what I mean about economic illiteracy.

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Wow. Resorting to insults.

I am not in the least economically illiterate.

Look at what I wrote- where do I say the admin staff have exactly the same circumstances as the op? Precisely nowhere.

What I said was that people on high incomes do not hold the monopoly on high outgoings, and that it is an utter nonsense to continually argue that if you have a high income you only have the same spending power as someone who earns a lot less.

We could all invent 20 different scenarios where people have this, pay that, married him, have 12 kids etc but it wouldn’t affect the basic logic.

telestrations · 19/12/2023 15:40

Just say you can't this time round

Boomboom22 · 19/12/2023 15:47

I think Margot might think all 30 Yr olds earn about 63k then when your children leave home you take a secretary job.

One more time, all people of the same age who have the same amount of kids have to figure out either 1500 for nursery or shift work or family help. They all have to live somewhere. The op is better off than all of them who earn less. If she chooses to live in a bigger house or use an expensive montessori instead of the cheapest childminder locally that's her choice.

No student loan never makes your income lower. You pay a bit more but only ever 9 or 15% for post grad. So the more you earn up to 100k you always clear more apart from the child benefit which staggers from 50 to 60k.

Sodndashitall · 19/12/2023 15:48

I agree it's not a nice way to do it. I'd make the point that in future it may be better to just do a truly voluntary collection pot rather than nagging people. There may be others feeling the same way

SkySecret · 19/12/2023 15:50

*You forget that you only pay 20% marginal tax on your £45k of income.

OP pays 40% marginal tax from £50k to £63K

And then you add NI (2%) and studen loan (9%).*

@BouncingJAS but you’ve not added the 12% NI for the person on basic rate tax. The jump from basic to higher rate is actually a jump from 32% to 42%. Not a jump from 20% to 40%. It’s not as significant as people assume.

Vintageport · 19/12/2023 16:27

@MargotBamborough I can give you an example from my own life, where I do know the variables:

I have a child with adhd- I chose to have him assessed privately, and have been paying privately for his medication and psychiatrist reviews.

This cost around £4000 upfront, and between £120-£170 a month.

After paying this I am very short of money at the end of each month.

However-

I had the opportunity of doing this, it was a choice that I made, and I have something to show for the money I spent- a well supported child.

My best friend has a child who equally needs to be assessed but because she has a lower income, she doesn’t have the option to pay privately.

She hasn’t spent the money I have on assessments and medication, and she is still short of money at the end of the month.

So- yes, at the end of the month we are both short of money BUT in my case it is because I had money and chose to spend it on something, in her case it’s because she doesn’t have the money in the first place.

If you have £58 left at the end of the month after you have paid for your house, car, phone and holiday you have greater spending power than someone who has £58 left at the end of the month but can’t afford a mortgage, a car or a holiday.