Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be annoyed by SIL making these comments towards my DD

785 replies

nhd · 15/12/2023 15:00

SIL is very much a feminist, very woke etc but to the extreme. My DD is 3.

DD is the first grandchild to ILs and first niece / nephew to my SIL. (I think) she wants to remain child free at least for now, so she sees DD as her closest small person. SIL and PIL want to take an active part in the upbringing of my DD which I'm not necessarily against - the more loving people a child is surrounded by the better in my view. SIL and I aren't very close but we have a good relationship in that we get on when we are together but wouldn't choose to hang out as a 2 without my DH or wouldn't share deep personal secrets. All this is to say that SIL is a nice person, loves DD and doesn't make these comments maliciously I think, but they still really really irritate me and I think they're harmful.

Comments that she will make:
Eg1. We are discussing schools and I mentioned in passing mixed / single sex secondary school and dating boys. SIL instantly comments "or girls if she chooses to date them!"
Eg2. SIL comes over and DD shows her some biscuits that we made that afternoon whilst DH was at football. SIL "you know, just because you're a girl doesn't mean you need to stay home and bake. You could have gone to football with Daddy if you wanted" (DD was excited to bake, she has never expressed any interest in football).
Eg3. I am helping my daughter to put on a dress (gave her a choice of 2, she picked this one) before we go to a family function. SIL comes in (we don't live together but we were driving her there so she came to our house first) and DD runs to hug her but as we've got to leave, after a few mins, I say "come on, let's finish getting dressed, you'll look so pretty". At this point DD is wearing a stained vest, PJ bottoms and one sock. SIL "that's okay, you don't have to look pretty for anyone. You look how you like! Would you like to go like this?" I'm all for giving kids choices but surely I can at least encourage my daughter to wear clean clothes and dress up for occasions? Of course I'd let her wear something else if she didn't like a dress but why put ideas in her head?
Eg4. And the "you don't have to look pretty for anyone" is an ongoing thing. I was once putting on make up before heading out for date night, SIL came over to babysit. DD started copying me, pretending to put on make up, then came up to the mirror and said "wow so pretty, like mummy!" SIL once again said to her "but remember, you don't have to ever try to put on make up or change yourself to impress a man"

OP posts:
TreacleMines · 16/12/2023 01:37

Notimeforaname · 15/12/2023 23:44

Feminism is about equality. How does being a SAHM support equality, especially for women as a whole? It doesn't.

Never in my life would I do something day-in day-out( that I never wanted to do in the first place) just to support a group of anything or anyone. Bulshit.
I live my life how I want and everyone else will do the same.

Indeed. As if it isn’t bad enough that women are held responsible when men are violent (what did his mother do wrong?), when they abuse children (how could his wife not have known?), when we are raped (why were you drunk? Why did you wear that skirt?), when we are underpaid (you’ll only go off to have babies), for the lack of investment in climate change (all those terrible terrible sanitary things ruining the environment)…

Now we are being held responsible for structural inequalities if we decide to stay at home with our babies for a bit. Why oh why do women have to be responsible for every ill in the world?

Why should we have to change our behaviour yet again, and go back to work when it doesn’t suit us, just because men are sexist wankers?!

Fionaville · 16/12/2023 01:46

She over stepped when she said your DD could go out in a mucky vest and PJ pants. The girl is 3, you buy her clothes. If you want to buy her pretty dresses and she's happy wearing them, then it's got nothing to do with anybody else!

Emeraldsanddiamonds · 16/12/2023 02:05

She sounds painful. So you want to dress your daughter nicely for special occasions! I have sons - as teenagers I encouraged them to shave and dress a bit more formally for special occasions. I even took them to a dermatologist rather than leaving them with authentic pustules. Was I doing it to oppress them and put them in thrall to the wishes of women? My sons would prefer cooking to football too and I didn't feel obliged to herd them out of the kitchen and onto a muddy field.

HamBone · 16/12/2023 02:20

Your SIL clearly means well, but the comment about what your DD should wear did undermine your parenting. Ultimately, you and your DH are the parents and will bring up your DD as you see fit, with your SIL as part of an her extended family.

If your SIL wants to parent a child, she could always become a parent herself… and you could express your opinions on her child’s activities, clothing, etc. !

Oh, my DD (18) went through an obsessed with dresses/sparkly things phase around 3 (nothing to do with my clothing choices) and guess what…she’s now studying engineering. 🤣

Tourmalines · 16/12/2023 02:33

WhichEllie · 16/12/2023 01:32

Yeah, no. Absolutely the fuck not. I would have fully shut this crap down the moment she tried to control and manipulate my daughter’s interests and behaviour. Like fuck would I let her make my daughter feel like she was wrong for liking dresses or baking or whatever. And she wouldn’t dare to undermine me about wearing dirty pyjamas in public either because she would have been put in her place at the first sign of overstepping.

I consider this garbage a form of misogyny. It is no better than disparaging women for going into STEM or pursuing graduate degrees or whatever. Women can choose to like and do whatever they want, whether it be makeup or working on cars. If she wants to shape and manipulate a child so badly she can have her own. And I say this as a woman who was raised in a family where my intellect and academic achievements trumped everything, who has four advanced degrees but was never allowed to just be a girl or a woman because that was subtly less-than. Who was made to feel as if things like fashion were beneath me and that I couldn’t “lower myself” to be interested in them. Don’t allow this woman to do that to her.

I think you should have a word with her, but also that you should stop any kind of sleep overs/babysitting or anything else that lets her be alone with your daughter. I just wouldn’t trust her to be honest.

Excellent post

WandaWonder · 16/12/2023 02:35

I would say any message is annoying if it goes on too much

In a way it is saying whatever the child doing is wrong, same way being over the top on healthy eating can create food issues

Or pushing kids too hard in learning an instrument

Balance is healthy

Geppili · 16/12/2023 03:06

SIL is controlling and jealous. All of this is a covert narcissistic act to undermine you and your values. She sounds insufferable. Reduce contact and don't let her fuck with your child's precious mind.

CityLass · 16/12/2023 03:08

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 15/12/2023 17:45

If every time your SIL hears you exhort your daughter to 'look pretty' she interjects a reminder that a girl's worth is not based on whether she is considered pretty by society, she would get a standing ovation from me.

Boohoo for you.

I wouldn’t let you near my family either.

Mills86 · 16/12/2023 04:27

TreacleMines · 16/12/2023 01:37

Indeed. As if it isn’t bad enough that women are held responsible when men are violent (what did his mother do wrong?), when they abuse children (how could his wife not have known?), when we are raped (why were you drunk? Why did you wear that skirt?), when we are underpaid (you’ll only go off to have babies), for the lack of investment in climate change (all those terrible terrible sanitary things ruining the environment)…

Now we are being held responsible for structural inequalities if we decide to stay at home with our babies for a bit. Why oh why do women have to be responsible for every ill in the world?

Why should we have to change our behaviour yet again, and go back to work when it doesn’t suit us, just because men are sexist wankers?!

Show quote history

Absolutely.

I work in education where many of us really value SAHP. We understand why a parent may not be thrilled at the prospect of returning to work when their children are in the early years- for many reasons but mainly because we know how crucial this period is. I always chuckle when I see the same posters on here arguing we should return to work in the name of feminism. If I could have afforded it, I’d happily not fit their idea of what makes a feminist if I felt it was best for my children, me and my family/partner.

Nobody ever mentions extended breastfeeding either. I didn’t do this but I have the empathy to understand some women really care about this and going back to the rat race is not really conducive to producing breast milk. Not everyone has a cushty working from home job where they can pump all day. Every single teaching friend who breastfed packed it in, often unwillingly, shortly after returning to work, as did I. Because pumping while marking or planning lessons or, if more senior, being on duty in the canteen, doesn’t help with oxytocin and producing breast milk unsurprisingly. I was told to watch videos of my baby to help with pumping. Oh how I laughed when I thought of my working day and how on Earth I’d squeeze this in too.

That’s all I’m going to say as I’m being a hypocrite by being annoyed when reading a thread that’s not about being a SAHM becoming about them. So I’m sorry to be part of this hijacking OP.

Your SIL sounds annoying but I agree with her in principle. I’d have to say something, starting with undermining you trying to get your daughter dressed appropriately to go out. I also don’t think it’s age appropriate and we can impart this messaging throughout a childhood/adolescence which I’d also explain. As for the pretty comments, surely we can call our daughters pretty but also strong, brave and other qualities often attributed to boys? Why so polarised on this forum all the time? I tell my DD she’s beautiful most days. If that also makes me not fit in with someone’s feminism so be it. I also used the word pretty when she was much younger because of her limited vocabulary. As she grew up, this was accompanied by age appropriate conversations about beauty being unimportant compared to our kindness or hard work etc etc. I actually think it could be damaging to not ever tell a child they’re beautiful. I really disagree with parents who make this decision.

GirlsAloudReturnMadeMyYEAR · 16/12/2023 04:33

She sounds horrendous and actually I don't think she sounds very nice either, no need to say any of this shit to a child just let her be little.

GirlsAloudReturnMadeMyYEAR · 16/12/2023 04:49

1982mommaof4 · 16/12/2023 00:17

👌

Show quote history

Very very very judgemental, imagine being this nasty about other women.

SweetFemaleAttitude · 16/12/2023 05:00

Team SIL here!!

Make up is a 'form of art' 😂😂😂 thank fuck for her auntie

alwaystroubleonmn · 16/12/2023 05:31

GirlsAloudReturnMadeMyYEAR · 16/12/2023 04:49

Very very very judgemental, imagine being this nasty about other women.

Show quote history

I agree - we need to stop being so judgmental about other women’s choices.

Bunda · 16/12/2023 06:00

I like her

Didimum · 16/12/2023 07:03

saraclara · 15/12/2023 23:56

I was a SAHM for five years. It wasn't remotely detrimental to my career going forward. I went back at the same level that I was when I left (and from which I wouldn't expect to have progressed in that period, given the nature of my job). I was promoted two years later, and again a few years after that, in exactly the same timeline of have expected had i been working throughout.

I expected to be a working mother. My DH would have loved to be a SAHD. But when my first child arrived, and I went back to work for the few months I was obligated to, I was miserable. I wanted to be home with my child, and handed in my notice.

Not for one minute did I feel obliged to stay at work and be miserable for the sake of the sisterhood. That's absolutely ridiculous and makes a mockery of feminism being about choice. I don't owe anything to every other woman just because we share genital anatomy.

Edited
Show quote history

You are a case study of one. It’s the biggest reason that the gender pay gap is so wide, so whether it applies to you an an individual is not the issue.

LiquoriceAllsorts2 · 16/12/2023 07:13

I can see why it would be very annoying thing and well the football thing is not appropriate. Yes your daughter can play football but going with daddy to the football probably wouldn’t have been young child appropriate and giving her the idea that she can go is wrong.
and yes she doesn’t need to dress/look pretty for anyone but that doesn’t mean she shouldn’t have to have her hair brushed/have a complete outfit that is warm enough etc.

Frasers · 16/12/2023 07:15

its interesting how divisive this is. Some posters are deeply angry at the sil’s messages to the child (taking the pj situation out. Others deeply supportive of little girls getting these Messages.

Why are people redefining feminism to suit their narrative? Feminism is ensuring women have equality, politically, socially and economically.

Strictlymad · 16/12/2023 07:48

It’s one extreme to the other, from telling girls they can play football and cars your DD has still chosen to bake as THAT IS HER CHOICE! And yet apparently she’s isn’t allowed to make that choice any more, she should be pushed to go to the football, she’s isn’t allowed to choose a dress etc. it’s just as bad as goes choices being taken away forcing them to be sahp etc. and sil constantly making undermining digs at any comment you make as the omelet asking yourself child to get dressed is totally inappropriate

captainmarvella · 16/12/2023 07:58

BethDuttonsTwin · 15/12/2023 16:34

Only a slight majority of younger generations are fully straight. Likely for younger generations even less. Stats show that only around 50% of gen z are EXCLUSIVELY attracted to the opposite sex (and imagine if some of those people grew up in families or with peers who don’t accept that.)

Nonsense. Being “queer” has immense social currency right now and that is what is driving those “stats”. Nothing more boring than being a heterosexual youngster right now so they’re all pretending to be something else. They’ll grow out of it and the next generation will look back with incomprehension at how ridiculous it all was.

Wow, did you just dismiss an entire minority? Saying they are all lying, that there is no possibility they can be queer, that they all MUST be straights who are lying to get street cred? You are worse than the vile queerphobes who beat up those they suspect as queer.

captainmarvella · 16/12/2023 08:00

nhd · 15/12/2023 15:00

SIL is very much a feminist, very woke etc but to the extreme. My DD is 3.

DD is the first grandchild to ILs and first niece / nephew to my SIL. (I think) she wants to remain child free at least for now, so she sees DD as her closest small person. SIL and PIL want to take an active part in the upbringing of my DD which I'm not necessarily against - the more loving people a child is surrounded by the better in my view. SIL and I aren't very close but we have a good relationship in that we get on when we are together but wouldn't choose to hang out as a 2 without my DH or wouldn't share deep personal secrets. All this is to say that SIL is a nice person, loves DD and doesn't make these comments maliciously I think, but they still really really irritate me and I think they're harmful.

Comments that she will make:
Eg1. We are discussing schools and I mentioned in passing mixed / single sex secondary school and dating boys. SIL instantly comments "or girls if she chooses to date them!"
Eg2. SIL comes over and DD shows her some biscuits that we made that afternoon whilst DH was at football. SIL "you know, just because you're a girl doesn't mean you need to stay home and bake. You could have gone to football with Daddy if you wanted" (DD was excited to bake, she has never expressed any interest in football).
Eg3. I am helping my daughter to put on a dress (gave her a choice of 2, she picked this one) before we go to a family function. SIL comes in (we don't live together but we were driving her there so she came to our house first) and DD runs to hug her but as we've got to leave, after a few mins, I say "come on, let's finish getting dressed, you'll look so pretty". At this point DD is wearing a stained vest, PJ bottoms and one sock. SIL "that's okay, you don't have to look pretty for anyone. You look how you like! Would you like to go like this?" I'm all for giving kids choices but surely I can at least encourage my daughter to wear clean clothes and dress up for occasions? Of course I'd let her wear something else if she didn't like a dress but why put ideas in her head?
Eg4. And the "you don't have to look pretty for anyone" is an ongoing thing. I was once putting on make up before heading out for date night, SIL came over to babysit. DD started copying me, pretending to put on make up, then came up to the mirror and said "wow so pretty, like mummy!" SIL once again said to her "but remember, you don't have to ever try to put on make up or change yourself to impress a man"

OP, you describe your sister as a feminist. But not yourself. You don't consider yourself as one? Why? Is it because you think being a feminist is not good?

Shouldn't we all be feminists... being a woman?

guinnessguzzler · 16/12/2023 08:11

This thread is so interesting and I agree with PPs that it is all about balance. I realise I grew up in a family where 'girl' things were often belittled, similar to what @WhichEllie described. Women's contribution to society is incredibly undervalued and lots of people seem to think that feminism is about women rejecting anything seen as typically for / by women in favour of the 'important men stuff'. Childcare, unpaid care, household chores including things like baking are all hugely important things which society places very little value on. Surely the answer is to start recognising how important these things are and evening things up so they don't mainly fall to women. This would also help as we all know that as soon as a man does something it becomes more valued.

To take the football example, I understand your SIL thinks she is doing great feminism by saying your daughter can go to the match too but perhaps, if she must say something, she would be better encouraging Dad to stay home and bake?

I have to admit I would find at least some of this irritating; my sister continues to encourage my kids into STEM (fine with me if they do go this way, although she is not actually happy in this career) because what a disaster it would be if they followed my example as a charity CEO in a female dominated field. I just work with a bunch of wimmin helping mainly wimmin so how useful can that really be?!

5128gap · 16/12/2023 08:32

Naptrappedmummy · 15/12/2023 18:52

What’s wrong with celebrating beauty? Brains are also genetic to a large extent yet it’s ok to celebrate intelligence?

Show quote history

This is a very fair point. Intelligence is no more an indicator of decency and good character than beauty. Nor is it a chosen behaviour worthy of praise. Either be consistent in reserving positive comments to things within the child's control, or don't. A child of below average Intelligence does not need to hear brains extolled as a virtue.

Angrycat2768 · 16/12/2023 08:32

MsRosley · 15/12/2023 19:18

I don't disagree exactly but I remember someone - Chekhov? - writing something about plain women only get very specific compliments, like 'you have lovely eyes' or 'you have great hair'. I remember when I told my (incredibly feminist, tom-boyish) daughter how beautiful she was and her whole face lit up with pleasure and reassurance. (My mother never did that for me. I grew up thinking I wasn't pretty enough, and it did untold damage to me emotionally and in relationships.)

Show quote history

But surely this is a result of social stereotyping. Why do you need to be told you are pretty to have self-esteem rather than because someone compliments you on sonething well done, or because you achieved something or because you are your own person or you have done something good for others? So what if you are 'plain'? Chekhov was born 2 centuries ago!'I never tell my boys they are ' pretty' just off the bat for no reason. I tell them they have done well at things, and that I am proud of them. Its not difficult to do with boys because we are not conditioned to think their looks are the most important thing about them. Even if you are ' plain', you have worth as a person. It goes without saying for men. The same should apply to women. Self-esteem and confidence should not depend on someone telling you that you are pretty.

Snugglemonkey · 16/12/2023 08:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

What a horribly misogynistic comment.

CecilyP · 16/12/2023 08:49

She sounds beyond tedious. Using everything you and your DD do to make a point. But far from being feminist, it just comes across as a put down and your DD will become wise to it sooner or later.

I’d call her out; especially for things that involve her brother. Eg example 2, you could have said, Actually Dave didn’t invite her!’ Who takes a 3 year old to a football match anyway? They’d be bored stiff!