Page 5 | To think this is a case of sour grapes?

Diaria · 2023-12-14T04:40:51+00:00

Woman believes that childless women pick up the slack for working Mums…. Reading this, she sounds bitter, sour and traumatised by her prior fertility battle and failed relationship. She worked in retail; it is of course mental and draining around Christmas time. Essentially, the argument is that childless women are forgotten and mothers get all these perks along the way --like total exhaustion but I digress…-- She even goes so far as to complain about mothers having a paid maternity leave (often a pittance) and complains about her having to save £500 a month and not being given a free holiday…… maternity isn’t hopping around Thailand and most mothers couldn’t afford to save £500 a month!! Anyway, I have no patience for this… but discuss. I quit because I can't bear picking up the slack for working mums [[https://mol.im/a/12860533 https://mol.im/a/12860533]]

Over40Overdating · 14/12/2023 08:51

Well this article has done what it was designed to - get the the high horse brigade out in force, trotting out the usual tropes about childless women.

As someone who is child free by choice the insults don’t bother me any more - I am not bitter, jealous or eating sour grapes, thanks - but the language being used about a woman with a long and painful fertility battle is a new low, even for mumsnet.

And I was someone who always worked for my colleagues who had kids until a few trotted out their real feelings about childless women as though it was canon law. Never done a single favour since and made sure I get equal time off in summer and at Xmas - it’s not childless people who need to check their privilege or attitude.

GrumpyPanda · 14/12/2023 08:52

willWillSmithsmith · 14/12/2023 08:09

If she had been able to have children I’m going to guess she would have taken the leave ‘perks’ she’s complaining about.

And your point is....?

So basically you're confirming the gist of the article while throwing in an extra "sucks to be you, Hon." You sound delightful.

Fizbosshoes · 14/12/2023 08:52

CollagenQueen · 14/12/2023 08:46

If this woman needs medical attention, she will call a doctor

If this woman gets burgled, she will call a police officer

If this woman's house is on fire, she will call for firemen

When she's old and needs carers, she will have them in attendance

Me, and many women, grew the doctors, policemen, firemen and carers, inside of our bodies. And for the privilege, it personally cost us hundreds of thousands of pounds in lost wages, lost pensions, and the actual expense it took to raise them, and sometimes we have medical issues due to traumatic pregnancies and births (not to mention the saggy tummy and tits, to boot).

You're welcome!

Sorry but I'm not sure this is a valid argument.

The main reason people have children is because they want them, not for the good of anyone else!

If you want mums to take credit for all the "useful" people she might encounter, then by the same token someone has also gone through pregnancy and childbirth to raise the burglar who burgled her house!

Just1MoreMinute · 14/12/2023 08:53

The underlying problem is employers trying to get away with minimal staffing levels so when somebody is off sick or a mother is off because of a sick child, the pressure is on for the rest of the team.

it is not sour grapes and it is not entitled mothers; it is greedy shareholders and bad staff planning management.

SquishyGloopyBum · 14/12/2023 08:59

"create a childless woman’s rights site like it’s some sort of special need…"

Wow, really showing your true colours now op.

Original poster

Diaria · 14/12/2023 08:59

meltingrainbows · 14/12/2023 07:35

I'm sure there are tough parts and privilege to each side of having/ not having kids. The article is obviously trying to provoke a reaction.

She's airing her complaints, but it cuts both ways. In the last month or so on Mumsnet, I've seen at least 5 different posts or threads where childless women have been described as bitter, sour, jealous of families, baby stealers, lacking empathy, clueless about children etc.

As someone who is childless not by choice, I'm envious of mothers and their position, especially around Christmas 😢

Hugs to you @meltingrainbows I understand how hard it is. I didn’t start the thread to say anything negative about any particular group. I just felt this particular article was bitter, and that the anger is misdirected from her personal issues and perhaps a fixation. I do hope she finds what she’s looking for on her sabbatical, and that she feels less of a need to attack mothers when settled on a new career path.

OP posts:

FelonyMelony · 14/12/2023 08:59

Sour grapes, poor management, martyrdom.

Mummyratbag · 14/12/2023 09:00

Refuse to read it, it's a dog whistle to a certain type of bitter man that hates women to come on to the DM and give women in general a good kicking.

The DM hate women who have kids (over populating the Earth/benefits scroungers/living off men/abandoning their kids if they work), they hate women who don't have kids (career driven harpies who should be bare foot and pregnant), they hate women who are successful...they just hate women. And don't even get me started on the awful clothes they put them in for the photoshoots.

I remember reading on a parenting forum about a women who had done an interview for the DM. What she actually said and what was reported were light years apart, totally inflammatory and hideous.

I'm lucky to work part time for an employer who is flexible and we all cover each other's hours when needed to allow a work/homelife balance, no one takes the mickey.

I do wonder how people who think women should stop having children think life will be as everyone ages. The shortage of people working in care as it is should be adequate warning.

CharlotteRumpling · 14/12/2023 09:01

Nothing wrong with childfree women groups. There is a sub forum on MN. I think the media likes to pit women against each other. I have DC and I have at least 4 or 5 close friends without. We get along just fine.

bookworm14 · 14/12/2023 09:01

The Daily Mail a) hates working mothers b) hates childless women and c) loves pitting groups of women against each other. It’s therefore advisable to take this article with a massive pinch of salt.

Also, as someone has already pointed out, no one is criticising fathers for taking too much annual leave.

Tinkerbyebye · 14/12/2023 09:02

She is simply telling her truth, in the way you op tell yours with your wish for wanting days off, or spending time with adults

but as someone who was a manager for 25 years I can tell you there is an expectation from most, not all, working mums that they should get first pick of school holidays, that it is always mum who is off with the kids, that they can’t do early or late shift, or have any form of inconvenience and they played the I have children card all the time completely and often deliberately forgetting that childless women also have family and responsibilities

the writer is correct about parental leave, you need to take them to a hospital appointment, you take holiday whereas mums get to take kids with no requirement to do this

you sound like you have kids, hopefully this is a wake up call to you and others about how you treat colleagues with your I have children mantra

TeenLifeMum · 14/12/2023 09:06

I read the article and had no sympathy as a working mother of 3 school aged dc - I’ll be on call for work on Boxing Day. Never has our rota discussion included who has dc. Considering the woman in the article was a manager. Maybe she needed to be better at managing her team’s leave requests?!

Original poster

Diaria · 14/12/2023 09:09

SquishyGloopyBum · 14/12/2023 07:36

not resentful of women without kids, just feel they are really very privileged and free in some ways (though if they want kids that’s another story).

But you saying that childfree are privileged and free shows you do resent them.

@SquishyGloopyBum

To put it into context, I went for a girls wkend away recently with childless friends.

Whenever we were arranging our trip, over a three month period I had one weekend free, whereas the rest of the ladies had every weekend available bar one.

They were really kind and went for the weekend that worked for me so I could come and join and I was really appreciative.

That’s what I mean by privileged; for me a weekend away is a rare occurrence due to the children, in terms of time and money available. For my friends they are unfettered and free to have fun and focus on themselves virtually every weekend.

I don’t resent them at all, I am happy for them. They could equally say they think I’m privileged to have my DC, I know they all would have liked that but life turned out differently.

It is what it is.

OP posts:

thedamnseason · 14/12/2023 09:10

Pickledprawn · 14/12/2023 08:15

@thedamnseason I was literally waiting for that comment to come along! Unless you have kids you don't understand sorry

The strike through thing is also fucking annoying FYI.

Coastalcreeksider · 14/12/2023 09:10

When I was still working, I was really pleased that all the colleagues with kids wanted to have the school holidays off, I certainly didn't. I was able to go off any time I wanted outside of those weeks and was more than happy at Christmas to go back on Boxing Day night (I worked late shifts) and let the parents have the rest of the week off.

OVienna · 14/12/2023 09:10

Fleetheart · 14/12/2023 04:57

YABU to read the Daily Mail and to expect it to be anything but sensation seeking misogynist propaganda ; sure she has a point but frankly it’s a real non story, let’s start pitting women against women shall we?

Edited

This.

theduchessofspork · 14/12/2023 09:12

It’s just DM misogynistic clickbate

I v much doubt she intended the maternity leave comment to be used as it was, she will have been twisted into it. DM journos are brutal (because their management is).

It’s a non story anyway - she works long hours over C’mas because she works in retail. She’d be expected to work C’mas and Boxing Day because they are big sale days.

If she is picking up the slack to an excessive degree that’s a management problem within her company.

BubbleBubbleBubbleBubblePop · 14/12/2023 09:13

I actually had this discussion with a friend a few days ago. Well, not this exact discussion but similar.

I'll start by saying that I don't think single childless women pick up the slack at all. However I do think single childless adults (ones who are on lower salaries) get the worst deal from society financially. They get no help with anything financially (if you're on even a minimum wage salary, there is no help from universal credit, you have the 100% cost of rent/mortgage/bills etc. I know that you don't have the outgoings of a child, but certainly at the age mine is at (almost 2) she really doesn't cost that much! I know, wait till she gets older....

I (a single mum) get my part time salary topped up with universal credit, I get 85% of my nursery fees paid etc. While my friend who works all the hours under the sun struggles financially, pays so much tax & NI and doesn't get any financial assistance (bar what her taxes pay towards).

This is just life though, we can't go begrudging every single person as we all have it better/worse in different ways.

LaurieStrode · 14/12/2023 09:15

CollagenQueen · 14/12/2023 08:46

If this woman needs medical attention, she will call a doctor

If this woman gets burgled, she will call a police officer

If this woman's house is on fire, she will call for firemen

When she's old and needs carers, she will have them in attendance

Me, and many women, grew the doctors, policemen, firemen and carers, inside of our bodies. And for the privilege, it personally cost us hundreds of thousands of pounds in lost wages, lost pensions, and the actual expense it took to raise them, and sometimes we have medical issues due to traumatic pregnancies and births (not to mention the saggy tummy and tits, to boot).

You're welcome!

What a complete and utter crock of shit.

theduchessofspork · 14/12/2023 09:15

Coastalcreeksider · 14/12/2023 09:10

When I was still working, I was really pleased that all the colleagues with kids wanted to have the school holidays off, I certainly didn't. I was able to go off any time I wanted outside of those weeks and was more than happy at Christmas to go back on Boxing Day night (I worked late shifts) and let the parents have the rest of the week off.

Well that’s fine if it suits you, but it doesn’t mean it suits most people - people without kids also have families and/or partners who need to holiday in the school breaks.

The DM crap is non non story, but staff need to have equal access to holiday slots (and mostly they do)

Panama2 · 14/12/2023 09:18

When I worked it was expected that at Easter and Christmas staff with children got that time off or at the very least first pick of days off. It was always the mothers though not the fathers.

CasaAmarela · 14/12/2023 09:18

I have a young child and it's usually my older childfree/have adult kids colleagues who book up the summer holidays first. I'm fine with this though as DD goes to my Mum's and I have no desire to take the summer holidays off 😂

theduchessofspork · 14/12/2023 09:21

Tinkerbyebye · 14/12/2023 09:02

She is simply telling her truth, in the way you op tell yours with your wish for wanting days off, or spending time with adults

but as someone who was a manager for 25 years I can tell you there is an expectation from most, not all, working mums that they should get first pick of school holidays, that it is always mum who is off with the kids, that they can’t do early or late shift, or have any form of inconvenience and they played the I have children card all the time completely and often deliberately forgetting that childless women also have family and responsibilities

the writer is correct about parental leave, you need to take them to a hospital appointment, you take holiday whereas mums get to take kids with no requirement to do this

you sound like you have kids, hopefully this is a wake up call to you and others about how you treat colleagues with your I have children mantra

That’s a management issue

I’ve been managing for a v long time, I don’t give parents/mothers priority over anyone else. They do get time off for sick kids, so more sick days - but if people take the piss there it’s easy to manage them out by not picking up the slack on the work they missed at which point it becomes a performance issue.

To be clear I employed brilliant working mothers - there was the odd lazy article same as with any other group. You just manage them out.

cannotdoitanymore · 14/12/2023 09:24

shakespeareontheroad · 14/12/2023 04:54

What she’s describing is the pitfalls of retail work. Retail and hospitality are notoriously rubbish to work in at Christmas, seems unfair to apportion that to colleagues with kids. I worked in retail whilst at uni, I experienced the manic Christmas rush and lack of downtime and that was working in a uni city with a staff full of students without any mums. It’s just how it is. She needs a career change not a swipe at mums.

And the maternity pay dig…that just makes her sound ignorant and a bit unintelligent.

Yep. Agree with all of this. It's the job she chose that's causing her stress, not other mums. And the maternity pay comment was ridiculous.

Original poster

Diaria · 14/12/2023 09:28

thedamnseason · 14/12/2023 07:59

Another bugbear. 'You have no concept of tired if you don't have kids'.

Honestly, when parents say this there is usually a collective eye roll. You sound insufferable.

People are tired for lots of reasons.

Also, childless people do know what love is, they don't have less empathy and they do have responsibilities.

Show quote history

@thedamnseason

From my own experience, working a full time job and then you come home to another full time job caring for kids, it just basically means you have no time off except maybe a few hours here and there, or when a kind family member takes them for a sleepover.

The only comparison would be if someone worked 70-80hrs per week, or was a live in carer for someone on top of full time work or they have chronic health issues on top of full time work. Personally I cannot believe I took my sleep and energy for granted before kids, the difference is night and day.

Of course childless people know love, empathy and have responsibilities.

What I will say re. parent vs non parent friends, the non parents tend to be less flexible, less tolerant of disruption and more prickly about things. But this is natural; they haven’t had their lives hit by the meteor that is kids. When you have your home, plans etc disrupted on a daily basis by the needs of another person’s life it does tend to make you a bit more laissez-faire.

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