Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this is a case of sour grapes?

402 replies

Diaria · 14/12/2023 04:40

Woman believes that childless women pick up the slack for working Mums….

Reading this, she sounds bitter, sour and traumatised by her prior fertility battle and failed relationship.

She worked in retail; it is of course mental and draining around Christmas time.

Essentially, the argument is that childless women are forgotten and mothers get all these perks along the way like total exhaustion but I digress…

She even goes so far as to complain about mothers having a paid maternity leave (often a pittance) and complains about her having to save £500 a month and not being given a free holiday…… maternity isn’t hopping around Thailand and most mothers couldn’t afford to save £500 a month!!

Anyway, I have no patience for this… but discuss.

I quit because I can't bear picking up the slack for working mums

https://mol.im/a/12860533

I quit because I can't bear picking up the slack for working mums

Having often felt obliged to fill in for mums who called in sick, and having worked every Boxing Day for 20 years, Samantha Walsh, 47, handed in her notice at the end of October and has no regrets.

https://mol.im/a/12860533

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Lifeasiknowitisout · 20/12/2023 00:54

SourSammy · 19/12/2023 21:33

Without going into specific individual situations at work I can assure you that the reason I left my job was almost entirely down to the mums and the issues they caused over many years.

We have been through this already.

It actually wasn’t. Every situation you brought up was down to your lack of knowledge and the fact that the company didn’t ensure its managers knew peoples rights and responsibilities. Which means you also don’t know about your teams rights.

As an example you claimed you were refused a your day week, where as working mums were allowed it. When actually your manager told you, you wouldn’t get it and you never actually submitted a flexible working request. Your managers failings is not the fault of working mums. Your choice to not submit a flexible working request, isn’t the fault of people who were granted a 4 day working week.

We have been through it at length. The fact that you are now pretending these things haven’t been explained to you and discussed, is bizarre. And there’s no point going through it again.

As I said before, if you really want to campaign for change you need to understand, in detail, employments rights as they are now. You can’t change something if you don’t understand its current state.

Lifeasiknowitisout · 20/12/2023 00:59

SourSammy · 19/12/2023 22:16

I absolutely did not misplace the blame - if you had any inkling of what some mums do to milk the system and exploit everyone around them for their own gain you would probably shake my hand for leaving. If anything, I’ve been overly kind in my explanations of what happened. The reality was far worse!

Lots of people milk the system.

I have been a manager for 20 years. In previous jobs I have known many people milk the system. I am not denying that some working parents (not just mums) do.

But I refuse to believe it was only working mums that milked the system. That you had no other staff, in 30 years, that didn’t pull their weight, have high absence and so on. It’s unrealistic.

But as we said, calling out your employer for their dodgy practices wouldn’t have had the same impact as an advert. Which is all this was.

ThirtyThrillionThreeTrees · 20/12/2023 10:07

@Diaria you still didn't answer the majority of posts which called you out on inaccuracy or completely biased assumptions.

Why do so many insist on comparing women and pitting them against each other based on whether or not they have children, how many they have, how they raise them,whether they work on not, step-mums v birthmums v adoptive mums, those who work, those who SAH. It is do ridiculous and do reductive to women to discuss snd segregate in this way. The assumptions made about when are there reproductive choices (or lack thereof) really needs to stop. Assumptions like you have made and there are many, really don't help anyone.

fitzwilliamdarcy · 20/12/2023 11:01

Africa2004 · 19/12/2023 20:15

You know there are jobs where you don’t have to work Christmas? Ironically, retail is one of them. I would have a word with your boss also, there’s no reason anybody should work 7 Christmas’ in a row.
I’ve worked 50% of Christmas’s since staring my job (16 years ago). That seems fair!

I do know that. I'm good at the one I do, and it's a vital service. I shouldn't have to leave just because other people refuse to take turns at working shifts that they signed up to work when they applied for and got the job.

(And as others have pointed out, retail does involve seasonal working even if not CD working.)

Oddly enough, in 8 years it had occurred to me to "have a word" with my boss - I've raised the problem on umpteen occasions and on umpteen occasions he has tried to give me the day off, only for us both to be steamrollered by my outraged colleagues. I've given in too many times and this year I'm just not having it anymore. He's now being steamrollered and I'm ignoring the ongoing attempts to emotionally blackmail me into working it.

50% of Christmases is fair. I wish I could say the same.

Over40Overdating · 20/12/2023 11:01

So you’re peacing out @Diaria having failed to get the support for your ‘childless women are just soooo jealous’ angle and not once apologised for the absolutely horrific statement you made about the OPs fertility? Nice.
Hopefully the fact that so many people - including working mums - called you out will make you think twice next time you try to denigrate a woman based on her reproductive status.

Africa2004 · 20/12/2023 11:08

Over40Overdating · 20/12/2023 11:01

So you’re peacing out @Diaria having failed to get the support for your ‘childless women are just soooo jealous’ angle and not once apologised for the absolutely horrific statement you made about the OPs fertility? Nice.
Hopefully the fact that so many people - including working mums - called you out will make you think twice next time you try to denigrate a woman based on her reproductive status.

You’re being too harsh on@Diaria. she’s entitled to her opinion as much as the woman who started this debate & turned women against women.
I can’t believe anybody is jealous of a person having fertility issues.
Having fertility treatment indicates you want to be a mum and sadly, if it doesn’t work or youve had enough, why then turn on women who have children? They wanted to be a mum so would probably have intended to be a working mum? Can’t anybody else see that it could have been them trying to defend their right to juggle motherhood with a career?

KimberleyClark · 20/12/2023 11:58

Africa2004 · 20/12/2023 11:08

You’re being too harsh on@Diaria. she’s entitled to her opinion as much as the woman who started this debate & turned women against women.
I can’t believe anybody is jealous of a person having fertility issues.
Having fertility treatment indicates you want to be a mum and sadly, if it doesn’t work or youve had enough, why then turn on women who have children? They wanted to be a mum so would probably have intended to be a working mum? Can’t anybody else see that it could have been them trying to defend their right to juggle motherhood with a career?

Edited

Can’t you see that it’s the way childless women are treated in the workplace that makes them like this. There’s a thread on the MNers without children forum where the OP was told - by someone with children - that she couldn’t manage a staff member with children on her own, she would have to co manage in case the staff member preferred to be managed by someone with children. Don’t you think that’s disgusting?

Diaria · 20/12/2023 12:04

@ThirtyThrillionThreeTrees @Over40Overdating

I already explained I do not have time to be reading through and personally answering every post right now and I want to listen to the woman's hour interview also.

I never attacked anyone on the basis of their fertility status.

I said women - and indeed men - who do not have children (for whatever the reason), do have some privileges/advantages in life in terms of predominantly their capacity to invest in themselves physically, mentally, financially.

Likewise, people with children will have other privileges and advantages, the main one being the privilege of having children.

There appears to have been a misunderstanding also in my use of language, I said childless when I meant child free (already explained).

Whenever I was going through my own fertility battle there was not the same differentiation - childless did not exclusively mean those who couldn't biologically have children, but was an overarching term for people without children "childfree".

There is no way I would be jealous of anyone having fertility issues, that would be utter lunacy. It was hellish when I went through it. Thankfully, therapy and a good support system helped me to get through and come to terms with our family being more limited than we would have liked. I would recommend this as a course of action over attacking working Mums.

In terms of my friends who don't have children (95% of whom didn't want them, took on step children, or are still not ready), they have a vast amount of free time outside of working hours. They have more hobbies, holidays, fun, they are less overwhelmed, their home life is more straightforward and calmer, they have more time for their partners, friends and extended family, if they wish to change career or study a course or move to a different city there is virtually nothing to impede them, they get adequate sleep and better health.... it is all of those things I think to myself, gosh I wish I had appreciated all of that more prior to having children.

And I think that may have been why I was peeved by the article; I was sleep deprived and exhausted dealing with an ill disabled child. And there was this woman, depicted completely serene, well rested and glam, complaining that essentially her "me time" was being screwed up by working Mums and demanding that the only bit of slack Mum's get cut to help them cope be taken away and going on about the "holiday" of maternity leave..... I mean it was crazy to read.

The real issue is inadequate management, lack of childcare options around holiday periods and unequal distribution of childcare responsibility between parents.

Women fought for the right to work alongside men and have the same workload, the same rights, the same treatment.

The exception is for women who are pregnant, the parent on maternity, working parents - be they male or female - and the disabled all of whom can request flexible working and/or reasonable adjustments because they have just cause for doing so.

If you are unhappy with your job and the conditions that surround it, including heavy workload around holiday times and management failures, then you leave that job, retrain for something else, or demand that management do better. Sitting for years on end feeling resentful and misdirecting anger due to personal reasons, it doesn't help anyone in the workplace.

OP posts:
Lifeasiknowitisout · 20/12/2023 12:19

KimberleyClark · 20/12/2023 11:58

Can’t you see that it’s the way childless women are treated in the workplace that makes them like this. There’s a thread on the MNers without children forum where the OP was told - by someone with children - that she couldn’t manage a staff member with children on her own, she would have to co manage in case the staff member preferred to be managed by someone with children. Don’t you think that’s disgusting?

thats ridiculous. Whoever suggested that is a complete idiot.

On the flip side, as a working mother? I have had my career disrupted and had many awful comments from women. Usually, but not exclusively, from women without children.

Assumptions I don’t like my kids. Don’t parent them. They must be damaged. I couldn’t possibly take on my responsibility or take a promotion. Or want to be involved in social events and so on. Bosses who happen to not have children try and pass me over on the assumption I couldn’t do something.

I don’t let my experience with some people who happened to not have children make me like anything. Nobody makes decide that all people who don’t have children are like that.

The statement that women without kids, can incorrectly, blame working mothers for being ‘like thi is odd. These are grown women. No one is making them like anything.

Just like people who happen to have kids, who think they should take priority are just like that. No one else makes them like this. No one else is responsible for their selfishness.

ThirtyThrillionThreeTrees · 20/12/2023 12:45

@Diaria there has never been any other poster on this site who has demonstrated such a lack of selfwareness.

You use words like misunderstanding. Your tone is patronising. You are trying yo explain even though you are incorrect and cannot back up most if what you have posted.

A better person would actually apologise for all of their inaccuracies and insults. It's a shame that you chose deflection, and to critise those who call out your inaccurate wafflings.

ChillysWaterBottle · 20/12/2023 13:15

All the evidence shows it is working mothers who are disadvantaged and discriminated against in the workplace. I had children later in life, so spent 16 years working without children, and know from experience the workplace is built for childless people or those with partners (usually the women) able to take on the bulk of childcare. It's unsurprising the Daily Mail would print this misogynistic shite and unsurprising the usual suspects here would defend it. The woman in that article is a bitter, nasty piece of work attacking a group more vulnerable than her rather than processing her own emotions. No sympathy from me and I'm really glad to hear more workplaces are being more considerate of and accomodating to working mothers.

LaurieStrode · 20/12/2023 13:26

ChillysWaterBottle · 20/12/2023 13:15

All the evidence shows it is working mothers who are disadvantaged and discriminated against in the workplace. I had children later in life, so spent 16 years working without children, and know from experience the workplace is built for childless people or those with partners (usually the women) able to take on the bulk of childcare. It's unsurprising the Daily Mail would print this misogynistic shite and unsurprising the usual suspects here would defend it. The woman in that article is a bitter, nasty piece of work attacking a group more vulnerable than her rather than processing her own emotions. No sympathy from me and I'm really glad to hear more workplaces are being more considerate of and accomodating to working mothers.

Please provide your "evidence" because to the contrary I've seen numerous academic, peer-reviewed studies that conclude the childfree are ill-treated and disadvantaged in the workplace.

Calabou · 20/12/2023 13:27

It's shocking that anyone could defend that article.
I can honestly say I didn't have any major issues in my working life until I had my first child. Then came the comments of how it was really a job for people who didn't have childcare commitments, how the manager wouldn't have kids as they're too expensive and distract you from committing fully to work, etc. My reply was that the thought of living to work was rather depressing, since she was well-known for trying to imply the mothers in her team weren't coping with the workload (when we were amongst the most productive).
Gladly, I was leaving anyway, but she'll probably still be putting other parents down to this day.
Parental status shouldn't matter, the only time I expect it to be considered is when I need parental leave (a part of my contract), and my current manager has no issue if I occasionally have to leave early due to sickness at nursery, for example, as my work always gets done.

SourSammy · 20/12/2023 15:55

The way you’re speaking to me is so patronising that I’m not going to engage further here. You know next to nothing of my situation - even your explanation of my request was all wrong. The mums didn’t get granted a 4-day week - they only worked one day a week anyway! And that was if they showed up for that. You really don’t get it, and I’m going to be patronised by you any further. You’re not speaking to one of your kids now! Merry Christmas to you.

SourSammy · 20/12/2023 15:56

*NOT going to be patronised!

Thatswhy11 · 20/12/2023 16:08

I've not read the link and nor am I going to....

Before I was a mum, a single mum at that. I had a totally different life I quite miss not having to juggle childcare and my lack of social life. Its definitely a case of the grass isn't always greener but nobody would understand unless they are a parent themselves.

Lifeasiknowitisout · 20/12/2023 16:17

SourSammy · 20/12/2023 15:55

The way you’re speaking to me is so patronising that I’m not going to engage further here. You know next to nothing of my situation - even your explanation of my request was all wrong. The mums didn’t get granted a 4-day week - they only worked one day a week anyway! And that was if they showed up for that. You really don’t get it, and I’m going to be patronised by you any further. You’re not speaking to one of your kids now! Merry Christmas to you.

Wow!

It doesn’t really matter how many days the mums did. You didn’t get a 4 day working week, because your manager lied to you and you chose not to put on a flexible working request.

It had nothing to do with how many days mums did or didn’t work.

It’s amazing, that you don’t want to have a civil debate and you see that as patronising and And are offended by it, when you wrote an entire article, blaming working mothers for your employer being crap and you not understanding employment rights.

You admitted you knew it was controversial and wanted to start a debate. But only a debate where people listen to you, agree with you, sympathise with and don’t challenge what you are saying.

You are annoyed that working mothers knew their employments rights and you didn’t know yours. Basically saying that women who know their rights in the work place caused too much trouble.

You attacked a large group of women to advertise your Facebook page, in anticipation of launching a business next year. People are allowed an opinion. I haven’t been patronising, rude, attacked you.

Interesting that you chose to bring my kids and parenting into it though. Why assume a mother challenging you sees you or is treating you as a child? That’s a huge leap.

Imagine if I said ‘I don’t like your replies to me. Yoh are patronising. You are not speaking to your husband/ former employees/father now!’. It would be ridiculous. I have no idea how you interact with any of those people. Why would I presume how you interact with them and what point would I be making. But interesting that’s what you picked.

Africa2004 · 20/12/2023 17:23

SourSammy · 20/12/2023 15:55

The way you’re speaking to me is so patronising that I’m not going to engage further here. You know next to nothing of my situation - even your explanation of my request was all wrong. The mums didn’t get granted a 4-day week - they only worked one day a week anyway! And that was if they showed up for that. You really don’t get it, and I’m going to be patronised by you any further. You’re not speaking to one of your kids now! Merry Christmas to you.

This is brilliant. Talk about true colours!! Amazing the difference when she was challenged compared to DM readers blindly nodding along.
I’m so relieved to see the recent responses to her, I’d started to lose faith in humanity.

Calabou · 20/12/2023 18:01

There is perhaps a debate to be had, but this is based around a Daily Mail article for a start, a paper renowned for stirring up froth - which is the crux of the article. Bad management and business decisions are blamed on working mums. The writer either doesn't seem to get that the issues she apparently worked through are caused by bad management, or simply wants to demonise working mums and pit people against each other.

Wonder why she doesn't target working dads? Or is it just women with children who are terrible slackers?

ticketstickets · 20/12/2023 18:25

I heard this woman talking on women's hour a couple of days ago. Here is the link https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001tgkf

I got so annoyed with her at one point I yelled at the radio.

I mean, I am entirely eympathetic that she has fertility issues, that she never got time off on boxing day, that she wasn't allowed time off to see her sick fahter or wtvr it was. But none of those things are the fault of mothers!

She had a management position, those usually come with lots of extra responsibiity (and hopefully extra pay). I also have to deal with work related stuff on holiday, I also have kids and have to deal with them too.

I have employees who take time off for kid related reasons (men and women - weird that she didn't seem to work with any dads) and those who take time off for other reasons.

I mean, we live in a world where small children need care.

She benefits from the children in her life (enjoys their company now, will presumably benefit from them working to pay her pension when she is retired, etc). Society NEEDS children, whether you actually give birth to them or not. Parents pay a disproproportionate amount of the costs of bringing up the next generation, but everyone gets to enjoy the benefits of having a future.

BBC Radio 4 - Woman's Hour, Gracie Spinks' parents, Child-free women at work, Grandma Wong

Gracie was killed by her stalker. Her parents explain why they want a change in the law.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001tgkf

ticketstickets · 20/12/2023 18:26

Also, the woman on women's hour mentioned mumsnet, so pretty sure she is on here. (haven't read this whole thread so not sure if she's popped up)

OracleofWurms · 20/12/2023 18:29

ticketstickets · 20/12/2023 18:26

Also, the woman on women's hour mentioned mumsnet, so pretty sure she is on here. (haven't read this whole thread so not sure if she's popped up)

At a guess i think its the user : SourSammy that wrote the article and is on this thread

BaronKaren · 20/12/2023 20:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.