Page 4 | To think this is a case of sour grapes?

Diaria · 2023-12-14T04:40:51+00:00

Woman believes that childless women pick up the slack for working Mums…. Reading this, she sounds bitter, sour and traumatised by her prior fertility battle and failed relationship. She worked in retail; it is of course mental and draining around Christmas time. Essentially, the argument is that childless women are forgotten and mothers get all these perks along the way --like total exhaustion but I digress…-- She even goes so far as to complain about mothers having a paid maternity leave (often a pittance) and complains about her having to save £500 a month and not being given a free holiday…… maternity isn’t hopping around Thailand and most mothers couldn’t afford to save £500 a month!! Anyway, I have no patience for this… but discuss. I quit because I can't bear picking up the slack for working mums [[https://mol.im/a/12860533 https://mol.im/a/12860533]]

Christmascountdownpanic · 14/12/2023 08:04

I worked for a bank years ago and the women with children would always get first pick of holiday time, hours etc. It was annoying but understandable. Some were more trump card about it than others.

There are many people who chose not to have children now as well as those that would have but cannot. But people often have other carer responsibilities too.

willWillSmithsmith · 14/12/2023 08:09

If she had been able to have children I’m going to guess she would have taken the leave ‘perks’ she’s complaining about.

CauliflowerMelon · 14/12/2023 08:12

YAB very very U.

Not sour grapes but the reality of childfree women picking up the slack for entitled mothers. I have faced it every Christmas of my working life, plus a lot outside of Christmas. It's infuriating. As is the smugness of your post.

CasaAmarela · 14/12/2023 08:12

willWillSmithsmith · 14/12/2023 08:09

If she had been able to have children I’m going to guess she would have taken the leave ‘perks’ she’s complaining about.

That's what I was thinking.

Pickledprawn · 14/12/2023 08:15

@thedamnseason I was literally waiting for that comment to come along! Unless you have kids you don't understand sorry

Lifeasiknowitisout · 14/12/2023 08:15

margotrose · 14/12/2023 07:32

@Lifeasiknowitisout I think because, in many cases, the parents don't acknowledge that they're getting preferential treatment - in fact, my experience is that they often demand certain days off and think it should be their right to have that time with their kids.

So yes, it's a management issue in many ways but it's also an entitled parent issue too.

But that’s not parents. It’s not working mums.

It’s some parents who happen to be rude.

I ran a 2 teams of people, I had 3 women between 50 and 63. All of them cared for elderly parents. The employer had a ‘let’s care for the carers’ scheme that accommodated them. Great scheme. Except the big bosses were happy to care for the carers as a sound bite but had no intention of supporting those who picked up the extra work while the carers had time off for various things.

I approached several times, saying that I believed supporting carers was the right thing but my team needed more staff to fill in the gaps.

1 woman was always grateful of the support we were giving. 2, saw it as her right as it was a work policy. I don’t judge all women over 50 based on this. I left the job because of the employers knock of doing things that made them look good but life worse for most employees. I don’t say women over 50 are the reason I left my job. I left because of the employer.

I have worked with lots of childless people in their 20s who wanted priority every Christmas over everyone because they wanted to go home for a week or two every Christmas and could t do a short Gigi because they lived over an hour away. Many expected it and were aghast when it was done on a rolling basis. If you worked last year you got this one.

I don’t assume all people who live more than an hour from family expect to be given preferential treatment.

its weird to judge an entire section of people. The woman who wrote this left because as a store manager she was expected to work Boxing Day. Didn’t matter how many of her team had kids, she would have needed to work all over the Christmas period.

She left because it suited her and she wants to set her own website up. Not because of working mums.

same as most people it’s their employers fault. And if working parents, that you work with, are suitably grateful. That’s down to who they personally. Not that they are parents.

musixa · 14/12/2023 08:15

There doesn’t seem to be an appetite in the U.K. to pay more tax and have a scandi style system where there’s affordable, state run long day/out of hours childcare

We already have a high tax burden in the UK compared to other European countries. I'm not against taxes being used for this purpose but I would be against taxes being raised for it - it should be about the way existing taxes are used, not asking people to pay more.

It's already the childfree who are more likely to be net contributors, since if you are working full-time and don't have children, you get zero from the state even if you are on min wage.

MumblesParty · 14/12/2023 08:19

I’ve been on both sides of this.
I have 2 kids now but I had them late, after a lot of stressful fertility treatment. I totally get what she is saying. As a childless woman you are often made to feel like a second class citizen in my experience. You’ve failed at your basic function, you’re weird, selfish, self obsessed, you have no idea how hard it is being a parent etc.

My requests for annual leave would always be trumped by the request of someone who had kids, male or female.

I was fortunate that my IVF was eventually successful, but I’ll never forget the abject misery of failing to conceive and having to pick up the slack for others, who already had exactly what I wanted.

Calling it “sour grapes” shows a jaw-dropping lack of awareness of the pain of infertility.

agentcooperinthewhitelodge · 14/12/2023 08:21

Of course she's a twat. Maternity leave isn't a holiday any more than someone being off sick for 3 months with a broken leg is a "holiday" (something I had to do in my 20s) Our work is very fair when it comes to sharing out Christmas working- its a case of: you had last Christmas off so this year, someone else has it etc..

As for maternity pay- does she not realise if this didnt happen it would mean less women in the work place, more misogyny and glass ceilings, more male domination in general and prejudice towards women seeking jobs in the first place. Not to mention, if no-one had kids there would be less people to pay for her pension when she's retired.

Before I had kids we had plenty of colleagues taking time off for hangovers, stress and other reasons she would argue "werent really necessary" and we all covered their work. What a twat she is.

ElaineMBenes · 14/12/2023 08:22

What an absolutely ridiculous article.

The bit where she complains at having to save £500 per month because she can't access paid maternity leave is absurd and makes her sound petty (and not particularly intelligent).

Her issue is with the retail sector not other women who happen to have children.

LaurieStrode · 14/12/2023 08:23

Sauerkrautsandwich · 14/12/2023 05:08

No. It isn't sour grapes.
There is plenty to read about how childless /childfree women are treated at work to a point if any other group was, there would be a tribunal and pay out. And eventually there will be. So far cases in US were dismissed, but that's a case of many now successful claims.

It usually hits around important days, especially Christmas. Unless you have children your life outside work simply isn't as important so why should you get time off.
And god forbid she is single. You know. The absolute nonconforming "freak"...

WhileI agree that she is partially describing retail/hospitality work which is pita, the picking up slack while not having any concessions does absolutely happen everywhere and it adds to already stressful jobs.

Agree. There are peer-reviewed studies that prove how disadvantaged the childfree are in the workplace. She has a point.

As to "children are the future of society," well a) that's not why most people have them and b) the planet is devastatingly overpopulated, so don't pat yourself too hard on the back. It's essentially a selfish lifestyle choice.

Andarna · 14/12/2023 08:24

At my previous job mothers got priority for christmas off. I once claimed it on the 1st of January at 0:10 AM and they still gave it to someone else because she was pregnant. I was livid with that policy. Just because I didn't have a child myself, didn't mean that I was fine with spending it alone instead of with my ill mum and my siblings children. Childless women do not live in a vacuum. This woman worked 20 christmasses so she did her bit and should be able to have a christmas with her family if it's important to her.

Lifeasiknowitisout · 14/12/2023 08:25

thedamnseason · 14/12/2023 07:59

Another bugbear. 'You have no concept of tired if you don't have kids'.

Honestly, when parents say this there is usually a collective eye roll. You sound insufferable.

People are tired for lots of reasons.

Also, childless people do know what love is, they don't have less empathy and they do have responsibilities.

Show quote history

I can imagine that is annoying. Even upsetting.

But people some people rude. Some of them have kids. Some don’t.

plenty of people with kids and without kids have said rude things to me. Especially about working. Women who didn’t have kids were the worst.

beat to just out it down to that individual being an idiot.

betterangels · 14/12/2023 08:27

FrangipaniBlue · 14/12/2023 07:39

not resentful of women without kids, just feel they are really very privileged

This comment alone tells me everything I need to know about you OP. It's not the women without children who need to be checking their privilege.

Agree with this. But I guess I'm privileged because I don't know what tired is... or something.

Original poster

Diaria · 14/12/2023 08:33

Gettingfedupgrrrr · 14/12/2023 06:42

I haven't rtft but I am single with no children who worked in healthcare for years. There was always an undercurrent of tension for every holiday period, Easter, Christmas, summer, which usually came down to the expectation that my single childless status meant I should forego, amend, or change any holiday request for all the mothers/fathers. (This was sandwiched by the resentment of the flexibility I had for taking days off when it suited me rather that being dictated by school holidays. )

Add to this the expectation that accepting an entire caseload of work on top of my own caseload for the duration of pregnancies was acceptable.. On one memorable occasion the person taking extended sick leave post her maternity leave, came back pregnant and then went on early maternity leave in her second pregnancy due to ill health. This obviously was not her fault but there was no replacement and no help, instead off being a 3 man team, at that time, we were a 2 man team for nearly 3 years. As time progressed we went from one pregnancy with one person to someone else or simultaneously. No one acknowledged what impact this had on older or childless nurses work load.

When I eventually started speaking up for myself stating I had equal rights to holiday requests as everyone else this caused my manager to start bullying me for being 'difficult'.

What was interesting was when mothers of young children clashed with each other this made for some interesting verbal exchanges on whose need was greater.

I am all for maternity leave and rights but there needs to be some thought/consideration given to the staff who pick up the slack time and time and time again.

@Gettingfedupgrrrr

I have friends in NHS, it’s almost as bad as retail. People are frequently having to cover two wards instead of one due to constant maternity/long term sick/pt work. It isn’t adequately staffed or managed well.

OP posts:

willWillSmithsmith · 14/12/2023 08:34

MumblesParty · 14/12/2023 08:19

I’ve been on both sides of this.
I have 2 kids now but I had them late, after a lot of stressful fertility treatment. I totally get what she is saying. As a childless woman you are often made to feel like a second class citizen in my experience. You’ve failed at your basic function, you’re weird, selfish, self obsessed, you have no idea how hard it is being a parent etc.

My requests for annual leave would always be trumped by the request of someone who had kids, male or female.

I was fortunate that my IVF was eventually successful, but I’ll never forget the abject misery of failing to conceive and having to pick up the slack for others, who already had exactly what I wanted.

Calling it “sour grapes” shows a jaw-dropping lack of awareness of the pain of infertility.

I had my children in my forties and I was never once subjected to any of those things you describe before I had them.

Original poster

Diaria · 14/12/2023 08:37

TheaBrandt · 14/12/2023 06:57

Well the reason the working mothers have to push back at work is because the burden of parenting falls on them. So the real winners are the fathers and their employers who get to have children but merrily continue with their careers unaffected. They are the villains of this piece but in our misogynistic society we are encouraged to criticise the mothers 🙄🙄🙄

This in a nutshell!

OP posts:

mangochops · 14/12/2023 08:37

I am all for maternity leave and rights but there needs to be some thought/consideration given to the staff who pick up the slack time and time and time again

I have also worked in the NHS for over a decade and regularly had to pick up the slack for social workers who used to take yearly time off for months due to stress and proudly stated they did it because they could. If cover isn't available that's on the employer to deal with- its poor management and its not only people with children who take time off!

AutumnNamechange · 14/12/2023 08:39

I didn't have children until my (very) late 30s so had around 20 years working as a childless woman and I never once felt I was getting a raw deal compared to mothers. Sounds like she was a bad manager who chose to be a martyr rather than make sure leave was fairly allocated. My mum was a midwife who often had to work over christmas as do lots of other women with children across many different professions, so the author's idea that childless woman are picking up the slack for working mothers seems to be a fantasy that she has cooked up to fit into a particular narrative that she is pushing. I do feel for her for her infertility struggles - it seems her way of coping is to make women with children some kind of an amorphous enemy.

realitytransurfing · 14/12/2023 08:41

CasaAmarela · 14/12/2023 08:12

That's what I was thinking.

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Agree with this- would she really have turned down maternity leave/pay or donated the money it to someone without kids?

Ha- riiiight.

Ponoka7 · 14/12/2023 08:44

CauliflowerMelon · 14/12/2023 08:12

YAB very very U.

Not sour grapes but the reality of childfree women picking up the slack for entitled mothers. I have faced it every Christmas of my working life, plus a lot outside of Christmas. It's infuriating. As is the smugness of your post.

No, as said, you are picking up the slack for bad employers, a lack of good childcare options and businesses that want to open longer and longer. Then a lack of joint responsibility on both parents. I never had to take time off because of good family help but did cover for the 'sick' days of younger staff on Sunday's, match days etc. Young men were the worst for MH issues (causing time off) as well as the 'sick' days.

CollagenQueen · 14/12/2023 08:46

If this woman needs medical attention, she will call a doctor

If this woman gets burgled, she will call a police officer

If this woman's house is on fire, she will call for firemen

When she's old and needs carers, she will have them in attendance

Me, and many women, grew the doctors, policemen, firemen and carers, inside of our bodies. And for the privilege, it personally cost us hundreds of thousands of pounds in lost wages, lost pensions, and the actual expense it took to raise them, and sometimes we have medical issues due to traumatic pregnancies and births (not to mention the saggy tummy and tits, to boot).

You're welcome!

TooBored1 · 14/12/2023 08:47

Surely the bigger issue is bad management policies? It's not the fault of the working parent that ratios are so tight, there's no room to move if someone has to take a day off. Surely management should be proactively planning cover for parental leave, not leaving it for others to pick up the slack? Surely management should have clear (and enforced via the team culture), policies on how leave is allocated?

None of these failings are caused by the working parent, so its not fair to blame them.

Original poster

Diaria · 14/12/2023 08:48

Goodluckanddontfitup · 14/12/2023 07:15

To call it ‘sour grapes’ shows a real lack of understanding of how painful and life destroying a fertility battle can be. The article is written OTT for sure, designed to wind people up. But as a person on both sides of the coin, unable to have kids for years and now lucky enough to be a mum, the fact is that in some workplaces there is a perception that the lives of those without kids are somehow less important, and they should fit in around those with kids and not necessarily pick up the slack, but certainly work the unsociable hours

@Goodluckanddontfitup

We had a fertility battle also, and you’re right parents - invariably mothers - do have the trump card to get time off.

However, to go so far as to be the face of venomous articles and create a childless woman’s rights site like it’s some sort of special need… could you imagine if they did this for men “childless men’s rights” it wouldn’t happen.

My DH worked in retail, the hours were long and unsociable, but he got on with it. And he was a parent.

The issue really is poor management in some sectors and unequal distribution of parental responsibility, meaning it is invariably mothers who need to take time off work for xyz related to children.

Rather than women being pitted against each other there should be more of a push for men to step up.

OP posts:

CharlotteRumpling · 14/12/2023 08:48

Fleetheart · 14/12/2023 04:57

YABU to read the Daily Mail and to expect it to be anything but sensation seeking misogynist propaganda ; sure she has a point but frankly it’s a real non story, let’s start pitting women against women shall we?

Edited

This.