Page 9 | To not understand this trend of men waiting until middle age to commit

Ageingisaprivilegedeniedtomany · 2023-12-09T18:23:34+00:00

I've seen on here a few times and irl that early 30s is apparently too young for men to settle down these days and most don't contemplate it until nearer 40? I just don't understand tbh, 30 is relatively young but they're not 21 year olds. I'm 32 and recently left a 29 year old who wouldn't commit. My Mum keeps telling me I need someone a lot older, but tbh I don't want anyone significantly older. Also hearing that most men are ambivalent about having children and do it to keep their partners happy. Just feel a bit fed up tbh. Obviously it's a massive generalisation but I just don't get it and hope it isn't entirely true

maudeskarenina · 10/12/2023 13:48

FrozenGhost · 10/12/2023 00:14

It's unpalatable but imo most women want a relationship and children with a man around their own age, who they get along with. Men want to fuck the youngest woman they can get. A 35 year old man could reasonably expect to attract a 25 year old, so there's no chance he would date a 35 year old woman - gross and old! (In his mind).

No most 25 year old women aren't attracted to 35 year old men at all, perhaps someone exceptionally handsome, rich or successful might attract a woman that age and of course it sometimes happens but it is pretty rare. When I was 25 a 35 year old was OLD and past it to me and my friends not at all someone we would consider dating. We used to shudder then laugh at the men in their 30's who tried it on with us.

Catza · 10/12/2023 13:49

Ageingisaprivilegedeniedtomany · 10/12/2023 13:42

I don't understand their way of thinking, I couldn't imagine being in my mid 30s now and having parents who are well past retirement age and could well have dementia/be in a care home/no longer be alive by their 70s. Certainly no grandparents around for long, I don't know why that's a good thing as someone mentioned up thread?

My parents were both 21 when they had me and they were definitely not mature enough to care for me, consider my emotional needs or deal appropriately with my health despite loving me very much. I am by no means generalising but I don’t think all people are mature enough for parenthood at the young age.
I was effectively brought up by my grandparents who were in their mid 40th when I was born.

Catza · 10/12/2023 13:53

FrozenGhost · 10/12/2023 00:14

It's unpalatable but imo most women want a relationship and children with a man around their own age, who they get along with. Men want to fuck the youngest woman they can get. A 35 year old man could reasonably expect to attract a 25 year old, so there's no chance he would date a 35 year old woman - gross and old! (In his mind).

No chance you say? I can promise you my partner who is only a few years older than me does not consider me old and gross.
What an entirely idiotic comment.

Diaria · 10/12/2023 14:01

Ageingisaprivilegedeniedtomany · 10/12/2023 13:42

I don't understand their way of thinking, I couldn't imagine being in my mid 30s now and having parents who are well past retirement age and could well have dementia/be in a care home/no longer be alive by their 70s. Certainly no grandparents around for long, I don't know why that's a good thing as someone mentioned up thread?

@Ageingisaprivilegedeniedtomany

I don’t mean to point out the obvious…. But a lot of your perceptions of things are unrealistic.

For instance, myself and several friends lost parents when we were in our twenties and early thirties - parents being in their mid to late 50s, early 60s when they died. Some even lost their parents in their teens from cancer (parents 40s/early 50s at death). In fact I know two people who died unexpectedly at 30/36 respectively leaving young children….

Just because you have children in twenties or early thirties does not automatically give you some golden ticket to being around long enough for grandchildren and supporting your children into 40s and beyond.

People make one of two decisions

have children young, hope for the best and do much of their career development alongside offspring or not at all.
have them older to be more sure of a good partner (although panic can set it), career development and financial security.

Neither case is ideal - there is never a “good” time to have a baby - it all depends on priorities and opportunities.

Gwenhwyfar · 10/12/2023 14:19

Ageingisaprivilegedeniedtomany · 10/12/2023 13:42

I don't understand their way of thinking, I couldn't imagine being in my mid 30s now and having parents who are well past retirement age and could well have dementia/be in a care home/no longer be alive by their 70s. Certainly no grandparents around for long, I don't know why that's a good thing as someone mentioned up thread?

Yes, it's not ideal, but many people want to be as free as possible for as long as possible. When I was unsure about having children, if I had ever done it, it would have been at the latest healthy time for me so early to mid thirties. If I were a man I may well have delayed it even more.

Pelham678 · 10/12/2023 14:32

HoppingPavlova · 10/12/2023 09:19

@Pelham678 I think you must come from a particular demographic though because I don't recognise this among all my friends. (Do you know lots of high-achieving men?)

It’s an odd way to put it. Generally high achieving would equate extremely hard working surely? You say all your friends (male) had kids in their 20’s/30’s. The reality is to do this they likely didn’t work extremely hard and that reflected in their achievements at that point, OR they did work extremely hard and the result was their partner/wife constantly slamming Mumsnet with AIBU/Relationship posts that they were never home, worked all hours, didn’t share in childcare or household duties and so forth.

The men in my demographic choose to work extremely hard and don’t wish to permanently partner/have children until they can achieve stability in terms of desired housing in a desired location and the ability to provide the time and energy required to be a husband/father. That means later when the 15 years of utter nose to grindstone has paid off and they are in a position to dictate such terms.

It's not at all an odd way to frame it. You've exactly proven my point. The demographic you are talking about is very high achieving men.

Not everyone wants to strive to be top of the tree and for those men having children earlier might be more of an aim. Also, they may be well aware that a 40 year old who doesn't have 'desired housing in a desired location' may not be so attractive to the average 25 year old.

Aydahayda · 10/12/2023 14:39

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 10/12/2023 07:02

You asked a man if he thought women should typically provide men with hassle free sex without commitment to a LTR and family and he say yes?

You do suprise me.

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@GreenIsMyFavoriteColour you seem to have missed my previous post, where I described how my DP is enthusiastically committed to me, was so from the very beginning, proposed a year after we met and we have a child. And that’s without going into details about how he’s shown he’s deeply committed to me and our child. You know, in ways that go beyond signing on a dotted line because he wanted to get in my knickers.

we haven’t married yet because I CBA.

so, your point is a bit silly.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 10/12/2023 14:42

Ageingisaprivilegedeniedtomany · 10/12/2023 13:42

I don't understand their way of thinking, I couldn't imagine being in my mid 30s now and having parents who are well past retirement age and could well have dementia/be in a care home/no longer be alive by their 70s. Certainly no grandparents around for long, I don't know why that's a good thing as someone mentioned up thread?

I don't understand your way of thinking tbh. I can't understand why anyone would want to have children before they're in a solid, settled and loving relationship. Before they're financially stable and in jobs that are able to support the family. Especially these days, with the cost of buying a house and generally being able to live. We have two decent salaries coming in and are stable financially but still have to be careful. If we'd had DC 10 years ago when I was mid 20s we'd have been utterly skint constantly and our situation would have put more strain on us. Being mid 30s, I had been able to ensure I WANTED to parent with DH and that if for any reason he wasn't here (I'm talking death but you never know, he may have just run off) I was also able to support my family. And I'm a good role model for my daughter, I'm a great parent and have a great career.

Aydahayda · 10/12/2023 14:45

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 10/12/2023 07:18

Also the only bit of the culture we're discussing is the "sex outside marriage component".

I'm pretty sure the cultures where the "price" of sex for men is a LTR and kids have higher birth rates than more enlightened cultures and have more marriages at a younger age.

The fact they may be dire in every other way is irrelevant.

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Irrelevant ????

Aydahayda · 10/12/2023 14:51

toomanyleggings · 10/12/2023 08:46

I’m not religious. My motivation for not engaging in casual sex before I got married was because I enjoy men treating me well and romantic dating far more. I also wanted to get married. I realised men respond better to less interest. Less texts, less time on the phone, less willingness to sleep with them. All of this means they’ll pursue harder if they find you attractive. I’m not a housewife clucking over the fence at young girls in miniskirts as someone described up thread. I get that women can enjoy casual sex and that’s fine as long as they don’t expect commitment as well.

Gosh. I must have the most unusual relationship (I don’t).

I asked DP out. I initiated the first kiss and The first time we had sex (second date). Messaged him all the time. Was super keen on him and told him so at every chance.

Sparehair · 10/12/2023 14:56

Pelham678 · 10/12/2023 14:32

It's not at all an odd way to frame it. You've exactly proven my point. The demographic you are talking about is very high achieving men.

Not everyone wants to strive to be top of the tree and for those men having children earlier might be more of an aim. Also, they may be well aware that a 40 year old who doesn't have 'desired housing in a desired location' may not be so attractive to the average 25 year old.

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Based on personal experience I'm not sure I agree (caveat being that these people are now 45 ish so maybe was easier to achieve stability earlier in terms of housing etc.) Of my cohort, a fair few (male) city lawyers, barristers and bankers got married late 20's (often to someone they met at Uni or soon after) and had first DC early 30's. I'd argue that some of these people did better precisely because they settled down early and didn't therefore get sucked into the mad city social life.

Deffo dont agree with pp about 35 year old men not being interested in 35 year old women. V few age gap relationships in my group (typically only 1-3 years) and in the four "big age gap" relationships, the woman is older in two cases.

Aydahayda · 10/12/2023 15:00

This is one of the oddest threads I’ve ever read on MN and I spend a lot of time on here

toomanyleggings · 10/12/2023 15:04

@Aydahayda not saying that people don’t get into longer situations by pursuing men but it very often doesn’t lead to marriage or at if it does not a particularly good one. There are always people who rock up to these threads saying they were ripping their partners clothes off within 20 mins and been happy 20 years but I’d say they’re either lying, deluded or very unusual

LaurieStrode · 10/12/2023 15:04

Wahtnow · 09/12/2023 18:30

I knownits an old fashioned view but I do think the old thing about not giving too much away too soon makes some sense. If they've essentially got a wife or all practical purposes without committing, why would they feel the need?

I think this is true

LaurieStrode · 10/12/2023 15:06

Keilagh · 09/12/2023 18:36

Yeah I know what you mean.

I do agree though that most men are ambivalent to children and some do only have them to make their partner happy. Thought this was common knowledge.

I have known very few men who actively wanted children and worked with/been involved in hobbies, volunteerism etc. MANY who freely admit, when they aren't around their wives, that they regret having caved and resent the drudgery, expense, the strain on relationship/lack of sex, etc. They love their offspring, as one does, but hate the lifestyle.

It's really too bad more people aren't honest about this.

LaurieStrode · 10/12/2023 15:17

I think there are multiple reasons.

For one thing, in prior generations, people simply didn't have the options to sample the 'banquet of life' the way we do now, even those of us without vast incomes/wealth. A few generations ago, most people had limited education, limited career mobility, limited opportunities to travel, not much else to do. So the natural progression was to marry, settle down, pop out offspring at intervals because reliable contraception wasn't available. Gender roles were more distinct and men didn't experience the drudgery of childrearing as women did.

Also sexual mores are different. My elderly neighbour, born in 1920 and now deceased, was a bit unique in that she was a musician from about the age of 10, and in her late teens to late 20s, toured with an all-woman band. They had lots of bookings and were in demand but it was still a sort of vaudevillian life staying in cheap lodgings, budgeting strictly for food, etc. I loved to hear her tales and once remarked that men must've been plentiful (it was wartime) and she said yes but that she and her mates had firm policies about not drinking and that "we all were virgins when we eventually married." (I believe her, not so sure I believe it about all 8 or 10 of them!) She said "Women get married because they want kids and men get married because they want regular sex." Old-fashioned perhaps but not totally off the mark.

Nowadays, men have myriad lifestyle options, can partake in sports/hobbies/clubbing or just enjoying life. Air travel is cheap and affordable if they desire to see the world. Social "norms" have changed and no one looks askance if someone isn't "settled" at any particular age. There's no external pressure. And they can get all the sex they want without being married.

Also in many cases, women are happy to set up housekeeping, foot half or more of the bills, even bear offspring, without a commitment. And no matter how oafish, slothful, lazy, abusive, boozy or dim the man, as we see here on Mumsnet it seems that somewhere there is always a woman who will put up with anything to be paired with them. So they have little incentive to strive or shape up into decent hardworking providers. And very little incentive to desire domesticity that requires any effort or pledge on their part.

I know it's considerd a "dated" notion but if women would raise their standards, perhaps men would raise their behaviour. Why continue to mate with such losers? Better to be solo and childfree than to settle for some begruding, resentul or disinterested partner.

LaurieStrode · 10/12/2023 15:31

Ageingisaprivilegedeniedtomany · 09/12/2023 20:16

Well that's the thing, I do get people saying you need to have these important conversations on day 1, on the other hand I am scared of pushing them away, however this man knows I split up with my partner because of no commitment, so in a way he'll probably know without me dating anything, whether that's a good thing or not I don't know. But I'll try to not give off desperate vibes lol

I wouldn't have that conversation with a new date any more than I would with the server in an IKEA cafe.

Can't you date with the idea of getting to know a friend/potential romantic partner rather than sizing someone up as a potential sire for your children? Most men would run for the hills.

greengreengrass25 · 10/12/2023 16:10

LaurieStrode · 10/12/2023 15:17

I think there are multiple reasons.

For one thing, in prior generations, people simply didn't have the options to sample the 'banquet of life' the way we do now, even those of us without vast incomes/wealth. A few generations ago, most people had limited education, limited career mobility, limited opportunities to travel, not much else to do. So the natural progression was to marry, settle down, pop out offspring at intervals because reliable contraception wasn't available. Gender roles were more distinct and men didn't experience the drudgery of childrearing as women did.

Also sexual mores are different. My elderly neighbour, born in 1920 and now deceased, was a bit unique in that she was a musician from about the age of 10, and in her late teens to late 20s, toured with an all-woman band. They had lots of bookings and were in demand but it was still a sort of vaudevillian life staying in cheap lodgings, budgeting strictly for food, etc. I loved to hear her tales and once remarked that men must've been plentiful (it was wartime) and she said yes but that she and her mates had firm policies about not drinking and that "we all were virgins when we eventually married." (I believe her, not so sure I believe it about all 8 or 10 of them!) She said "Women get married because they want kids and men get married because they want regular sex." Old-fashioned perhaps but not totally off the mark.

Nowadays, men have myriad lifestyle options, can partake in sports/hobbies/clubbing or just enjoying life. Air travel is cheap and affordable if they desire to see the world. Social "norms" have changed and no one looks askance if someone isn't "settled" at any particular age. There's no external pressure. And they can get all the sex they want without being married.

Also in many cases, women are happy to set up housekeeping, foot half or more of the bills, even bear offspring, without a commitment. And no matter how oafish, slothful, lazy, abusive, boozy or dim the man, as we see here on Mumsnet it seems that somewhere there is always a woman who will put up with anything to be paired with them. So they have little incentive to strive or shape up into decent hardworking providers. And very little incentive to desire domesticity that requires any effort or pledge on their part.

I know it's considerd a "dated" notion but if women would raise their standards, perhaps men would raise their behaviour. Why continue to mate with such losers? Better to be solo and childfree than to settle for some begruding, resentul or disinterested partner.

You talk sense

stayathomegardener · 10/12/2023 16:29

User893432374902zzx · 10/12/2023 07:49

Why is there no discussion about anonymous sperm donation? Women can take control of their fertility and child bearing imperatives WITHOUT need for a man.

Whodathunkit was possible?

My dd 24 mentioned this option the other day as can't seem to find anyone suitable to date despite working in a male dominated industry.

Said it takes any perceived pressure off her meeting the one.

Aydahayda · 10/12/2023 16:36

LaurieStrode · 10/12/2023 15:06

I have known very few men who actively wanted children and worked with/been involved in hobbies, volunteerism etc. MANY who freely admit, when they aren't around their wives, that they regret having caved and resent the drudgery, expense, the strain on relationship/lack of sex, etc. They love their offspring, as one does, but hate the lifestyle.

It's really too bad more people aren't honest about this.

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Lots of women feel like that too. I don’t love every aspect of having a child, but I love my child. I wish we’d had more time to enjoy each other, for example.

there are often threads on here started by women who long for their previous, child free life

GreenIsMyFavoriteColour · 10/12/2023 16:37

Aydahayda · 10/12/2023 14:45

Irrelevant ????

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To this discussion.

gannett · 10/12/2023 16:40

She said "Women get married because they want kids and men get married because they want regular sex." Old-fashioned perhaps but not totally off the mark.

More common among my circle for people to get married because they actually like each other.

If a woman only wanted marriage for kids and a man only wanted it for sex (subtext in both cases: any man will do, any woman will do) I wouldn't give that marriage much chance of lasting or being healthy. It'd be a sad way to go about things.

Bireadwhatiread · 10/12/2023 16:48

Women today have it really badly. Expected to be successful, earn as much as a man, keep a perfect house, be fit, do the majority of the childcare and put up with a variety of promiscuous men using and dumping them for years in the hope of meeting "the one".

I never thought I would say this but at least when men wanted commitment too, women got some security.

LaurieStrode · 10/12/2023 16:51

gannett · 10/12/2023 16:40

She said "Women get married because they want kids and men get married because they want regular sex." Old-fashioned perhaps but not totally off the mark.

More common among my circle for people to get married because they actually like each other.

If a woman only wanted marriage for kids and a man only wanted it for sex (subtext in both cases: any man will do, any woman will do) I wouldn't give that marriage much chance of lasting or being healthy. It'd be a sad way to go about things.

I think she meant in addition to loving and being attracted to one's choice of marital partner, not instead of. She certainly had a good, long, happy marriage.

But in her day people didn't have kids outside of marriage and many people chose to not have sex outside of marriage, so if one wanted either, marriage was the price of admission. And sensibly so.

gannett · 10/12/2023 17:10

Bireadwhatiread · 10/12/2023 16:48

Women today have it really badly. Expected to be successful, earn as much as a man, keep a perfect house, be fit, do the majority of the childcare and put up with a variety of promiscuous men using and dumping them for years in the hope of meeting "the one".

I never thought I would say this but at least when men wanted commitment too, women got some security.

Edited

Nah there's no way as a woman that I'd prefer to go back to the past. As a woman I think I have it a million times better now.

I have the opportunity to be successful and financially independent in a profession I love. I was able to enjoy being promiscuous in my youth without being judged for it (or ending up saddled with a baby). I'm able to build the child-free life I want without being overly burdened by expectations to settle down and raise a family. Which is also why I never felt I had to put up with any badly-behaved men who would've been shit partners. I'm able to play sports and do forms of exercise that would've been deemed masculine in the past. And I don't have to keep a perfect house wtf?!