PIP

[Ostagazuzulum]

I know this is going to be controversial. That's not my intention.

I want to stress that I'm not having a go at anyone who gets benefits. I'm just curious about pip and how it's justified.

One of my friends today has told me that they were recently approved for pip in higher scale. Going to be getting around £700 a month apparently. She doesn't claim any other benefits. She has fibromyalgia. Her and her husband both have middle management full time jobs earning around £80k per year between the pair of them. They own their own home and she's very open about having around £12k in savings. Three children all of school age.

They're intending on using the money for holidays mostly.

I'm just baffled how it's justified.

She definitely suffers with the condition, can sometimes struggle with mobility. and you can see she's in pain. But what's the purpose of pip? Her condition isn't incurring any extra costs and isn't being spent on day to day help. Why do we have it for those circumstances?

You have never done a pip assessment then or seen the struggles people have to get it.

Let's put it this way the rate of appeals at independent tribunals are 70% success rate because the dwp doesn't do their job properly.

I'll give you a correct example: 100 people apply for PIP. 100 people get turned down.

70 people will then ask for a mandatory consideration. Those 70 people will get turned down.

Only 40 approx will apply for an appeal. At appeal, 70% of those 40 will get an award. So that is 30 people.

Out of the original 100 people, 70 were entitled to an award. Only 30 people get one. Job done As pip have saved 40 people in every 100 who don't get it getting an award.

If you don't have help to fill those forms in, you won't get it as it's been made as difficult as possible. I could continue, but you should get the just.

Being disabled is not fun and does cost more in hidden costs you won't see.

Oh, and for your info, the fraud cost of disability benefits is. 0.05%

5 billion is in hndwepaymenr and fraud. 24 billion is in unclaimed benefits. They are gaining anyway.

It's no wonder there is so much in unpaid benefits as it's been made so difficult to claim and people aren't told about it

Overpayment that should say in the last paragraph

It’s not about whether someone can get themselves out of bed and to work on time, it’s about how they do it - the degree of difficulty, the time taken, the amount of help they need. That’s what PIP assesses for. You’re assuming that because someone is sitting at their desk on time, they don’t struggle, and that’s absurd. I have known disabled people who have to get up at the crack of dawn in order to get ready for work on time, and who deal with incontinence issues and all kinds of other disability related complications that would exhaust the average person before they even got over the doorstep, never mind to the workplace.

Unfortunately PIP doesn’t assess the disability itself, but how it affects the claimant in their day to day life across a range of personal care and mobility activities - how well they carry out each activity, how long it takes, the pain/after effects, how much help they need, whether they use aids or appliances.

The assumption is that no two people with the same disability will be affected in exactly the same way, or to the same degree. That’s the starting point, and also the biggest flaw. Because not everyone can present themselves well at assessment, not everyone is truthful about how much they struggle because it hurts their pride or they find it embarrassing to be grilled about what most people would consider the most private and intimate details. And not everyone has adequate medical evidence to hand. Some assessors and decision makers are better than others, and a few really shouldn’t be doing the job.

These are just some of the reasons why some decisions don’t make any sense. It’s not a fair system and it wasn’t designed to support disabled people - it was designed to save money because the government of the day decided that too much was being spent on disability benefits, therefore it must be too easy to claim. So they went the other way and made it harder for the very people it’s supposed to support. So blame that, and don’t assume disabled people must be cheating somehow if they can work or go on holiday - these are things PIP was designed to enable.

What you and quite a few others on this depressing thread need to realise is that unless you live with someone 24 hours a day you can’t possibly know everything there is to know about their medical condition. And unless you have access to their medical records, and are qualified to interpret them, and you’re also privy to the details of their benefit claim, you really aren’t qualified to sit in smug and largely ignorant judgement.

Yeah but things aren’t equal are they, because if they were, then Richard Branson would be obliged to give me some of his money! It seems bizarre for governments to say that things need to be equal, but then allow many inequalities to exist.

And what about equality between the people who get PIP? If someone on minimum wage gets PIP, it might make them equal to someone else on minimum wage who doesn’t have a disability. But it doesn’t take them anywhere near Rishi Sunak’s family. If the billionaires didn’t claim their PIP, then there’d be more in the pot for the minimum wagers. So equality is nowhere near achieved. If it was means tested there’d be more money available for the people who would really notice it.

It's not about "making everyone equal" in some kind of impossible communist sense. It's about levelling the playing field financially between disabled people and non-disabled people so that disabled people aren't financially disadvantaged because of their disability on top of the daily struggles and pain they are already going through. That is why it is not means tested, nor should it be. In fact those who are high earners and receive PIP have more than paid for it, and helped to pay for it and other services for everyone else, despite their disabilities and should be applauded for managing to work and do that.

This is why the social contract in the UK is breaking down: higher earners accept they fund services for everyone else but if you start trying to deny them access to the services they pay for as well then the system inevitably will collapse. Try to contain your envy for people who struggle in pain every day for years and receive a small amount of money (or tax refund) to help cover the cost that comes with that. It doesn't take the pain away or the impact on life. And frankly to truly cover the cost of disability properly PIP payments should be doubled.

So what you are saying is anyone who claims PIP is disabled and takes hours to get ready for work? How do you explain the number of people who are claiming PIP that are fully mobile. Have no special needs. Are fit to work - and manage to work a manual job 5 days a week? They are also able to come home from work, shower, change and be in the pub within the hour?

Im not being disrespectful or “ridiculous”! I stated I have no idea how PIP works when some fully functioning people are able to claim it - when they are in full time employment so obviously are able to prepare a simple meal for themselves - one of the first questions on the application form. Meanwhile, people who are not able to work, due to severe pain, needing help or other factors, but can throw a ready meal in the microwave at some point during the day, are not eligible for PIP. You came at me with a scathing attack.

I’m still no wiser since you explained about disabled people needing extra time to get ready for work. My sister has no chance of getting up, showered and ready for work - on any day! She has applied for PIP several times because she’s home all day - she has no choice - but cannot afford to put the heating on or pay someone to help her get out of bed and get dressed. She is now suicidal. But please don’t you worry about others. You’re alright Jack!! You can, obviously afford to pay someone to help you get up and ready for work. How does someone pay a carer to sort them out when they have no money??

I asked a simple question. All I wanted was advice for my sister. You have been no help whatsoever!

Thank you to the posters who share my confusion around the application process for PIP. I guess it’s a case of try, fail and appeal. Repeat until your application is accepted… If ever

It’s soul destroying watching someone you love suffer every hour of every day and there’s nothing you can do about it.

Green eyed monster idiots with no grasp of economics.

To be in a full time (I assume) management position and get enhanced daily living and mobility is interesting.

Why? Have you never heard of home working? Lots of people are too sick to go out, can barely move around their own house, often can't even shower or get dressed or prepare food but do manage to work on a laptop with regular breaks doing skilled work. At huge cost to their energy and in significant pain, but they carry on doing it. Why is this so inconceivable to you? You know nothing about other people's lives so stick your judgement and nasty insinuations somewhere not very sunny.

Thank you for this. The comments saying how people who manage to earn decent salaries despite their disabilities shouldn't be entitled to PIP are particularly ableist and disgusting and clearly fail to understand the entire purpose of its existence separate to income-related benefits (which include separate uprated amounts for disability for those on low incomes). PIP is to fund the very basics of the costs of being disabled, and doesn't even come close to doing that.

Not really the same thing as pensioners have paid into the system over a number of years to qualify for state pension

Most of the Boomers over their lifetimes will pay £400k each less into the state on average than they take out in services and pensions.

Many of the higher earners claiming PIP will still pay in far more than they take out because the average millennial will be paying in £300k more than they receive back in services and pensions (and that's assuming the current state pension still exists when they retire!) so the higher earners will pay in far, far more and PIP will be just a slight deduction from that.

Your argument is nonsense.

How is a fully functioning person able to claim pip? Or even be classed as disabled?

Oh my goodness. You needed to write that?

My friend's daughter in her 20s has aggressive MS, not the relapsing/remitting type. She cannot walk at all now, she can't get from a wheelchair to a chair and is lifted with a hoist. She has a catheter and needs someone to empty it. I think she has something for her bowels but that's private, I only know about the catheter because once a carer didn't close it properly after emptying it and there was a story. She can't cook or prepare food. She drinks cordial from a pouch with a tube attached when she is alone. She can eat finger foods but often drops them or inadvertently flings them about which she laughs about (her dark humour gets her through). Quite rightly she gets full PIP. The vast majority of which (care component) she pays to the local council to contribute to the cost of her Carers who come in pairs six times over 24 hours. She does not therefore have several hundred pounds a month to pay for the things that some of the claimants here do - heating, holidays, therapies. As she has to use her PIP for physical care without which she would die she ought to get a higher rate. She has been turned down for free care because the threshold is very high.

You keep saying you know that fully functioning people claim,PIP. This is not the case - your idea of fully functioning is based on what you see on the surface, not the full impact of the disability. The reality is that the assessment for PIP is harsh and it’s one of the most difficult benefits to secure - as anyone who has tried to claim it will tell you. I’m so sorry your sister is in such an awful situation but as sad as that is, it’s down to the assessors and decision makers assessing her case, and not the fault of others claiming PIP for what you clearly think are much lesser disabilities. I’ve tried to explain how the benefit works - not much more to say unfortunately.

My goodness this thread is a depressing read. The spiteful comments are awful to read.

Some posters on here would probably think my son doesn’t need PIP because he can get himself to college on time. What they don’t see is him setting four alarms to make sure he’s up before 6am - nearly 3 hours before he needs to leave. Then the countless reminders from me and DH to make sure he’s remembering to get ready. Then me or DH driving him to the station, helping him buy his ticket, and being ready to drive him straight to college if the train is delayed (which he can’t cope with, even if it’s only a few minutes late). And then me or DH fielding his numerous texts and phone calls during the train journey to reassure him. You would just see a young adult on a train going to college. He will never live fully independently. But that isn’t what you see.

The disability benefits system is awful and broken. But please don’t have a go at those who receive much needed benefits just because your family member doesn’t. We are not the people to shout at.

If you are over pension age, and haven’t received it before, you aren’t eligible for PIP. You need to apply for Attendance Allowance.

https://www.gov.uk/attendance-allowance

Absolutely spot on. They’re not. It’s as simple as that, and the post you quoted is the perfect example of why people shouldn’t be judging those in receipt of disability benefits because what you see on the surface is rarely the whole story. As I’ve said before, unless someone lives live with the disabled person 24/7, is medically qualified to interpret their medical evidence and privy to the information on their benefit claim, they are in no position to judge - the claimant will have provided medical evidence to support their claim and in most cases will also have undergone a stringent assessment on behalf of DWP, so will be perfectly entitled to claim, despite what the average untrained and unqualified nosey Parker thinks !

The level of ignorance on the thread as to why PIP is paid, is breathtaking. It’s nothing to do with the ability to work - that’s a completely different assessment. PIP is paid in recognition of the extra costs of living with a disability, and uses the range of essential daily living/mobility activities to determine how severely the claimant is affected, then benefit is awarded according to the level of impairment.

The question of whether someone should receive PIP if they are working, or can enjoy things like holidays keeps rearing its’ head and is typical of the misunderstanding as to why it’s paid. The clue is in the name - personal independence payment. To allow the disabled person their independence as far as possible. For example the motability scheme provides a lease car in return for the higher rate mobility allowance - the payments cover tax and insurance, servicing and maintenance. It’s only available to those with the most severe mobility issues and it’s allowed many disabled people to work and be more independent in their day to day lives.

Disabled people are criticised for not working and claiming out of work benefits, and they’re also criticised here for claiming a benefit that allows them to be supported to work. So they’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t. The higher rates of PIP allow the claimant a maximum of around £700 a month, and many respected disability studies have pointed out that the true cost of living with a disability far exceeds that. So PIP is a contribution to that extra cost. Those disabled people who are able to work traditionally are among the lowest earners, so that contribution goes some way towards levelling them up. Why is this seen as a bad thing ?

Many people with severe lifelong disabilities like Spina Bifida manage to hold down jobs despite high levels of impairment that you wouldn’t know existed unless you actually see what they have to do each day, just to go about their daily lives. A lot have no control over bladder and bowel, are dealing with double stoma’s or have to self administer enemas in order to be sure of not having an accident at work, and the fear of it happening is always there. And when it does, it’s usually very public - meaning that the disabled person loses control in the presence of work colleagues who they have to face afterwards. Think about that.

What people see on the surface is rarely all there is and doesn’t begin to reflect the hard work done people have to do just to face every day and be accepted as ‘normal’. Next time you all find yourselves envious of the extra money (because envy is what it comes down to in a lot of cases) ask yourselves if you would want the level of impairment that goes with it. In the majority of cases the money is spent coping with the disability, so the person is no better off. Sorry to bang on but when you know the answer it’s hard not to press the buzzer.

www.turn2us.org.uk/get-support/information-for-your-situation/personal-independence-payment-pip-assessment/what-is-the-pip-test

This is quite a good guide that explains a bit about the scoring system. If you can cook a meal but have complex bladder problems, you will score in one area but not another. Across the descriptors someone can easily manage one thing but not another.

@MellowYellowWithaBitofPurple

OK I’ll bite. I work, usually on low wage, and am on PIP.
Yes I have a ‘carer at stupid o’clock’ - 4am. Here's the highlights of any morning:

Her 1st job’s to administer medication then unfold my limbs. I severely stiffen overnight into a tight pain racked ball, and can’t move, straighten my arms, or legs or clunk my pelvis by myself, regardless of need. Often joints are partially out and have to be put back in, swollen ones have to be ice treated, (freezer and running it - PIP) and the fluid collected in my ankles has to be massaged up my legs.
She also has to sort out and re calibrate night-time devices and check heart and BP readings. (aids are NHS/PIP)
Next, my catheter bag (PIP) has to be sorted out and changed. I’ve suffered urethral necrosis (NHS) so there are leaks along with the need to clean up bowel voiding and it’s results, to be achieved so I can be transferred hygienically to my chair. (NHS) To make my PIP go far enough, disposable bags and tubes have to be cleaned and reused.
She (DWP) then has to get me to the bathroom and into hot water. (PIP) I’m still unable to move much independently even to save myself if things go wrong, and over time they quite often have leading to hospitalization, so it’s not only painful but stressful. The hot water combined with medication (NHS) helps get parts of my body working, but I can’t do it alone, and yesterday’s dressings (PIP) have to be removed before everything including hair, is cleaned. I’m then got out and towel wrapped. While I drip dry she swiftly strips the bed, washes down the mattress (hospital bed loaned by NHS) and puts clean bedding (PIP) on.

Then I’m put back onto it. She ensures everywhere is dry, does a visual check with paperwork, treats broken skin and pressure sores, and applies cream and dressings (PIP) where needed, especially undercarriage. Then applies cream and tapes (PIP)my big toenails, so when they bleed through being in my chair too long, I don’t end up upsetting others by blood dripping from my feet.
Then it’s a 300kj drink (PIP) and second round of medication. (NHS) By now I’m able to make coffee for myself in my bedroom. I’m dependant on her having filled the kettle, or on the bottles of water kept for if not, and due to a damaged pharyngeal reflex have to be supervised swallowing.

Then she helps me dress, including continence aids (PIP) and applies splints and support aids. (NHS supplemented with PIP) Then gets me into my chair. (NHS) By now I’m beginning to be able to move quite freely for me. That however doesn’t include being able to raise my arms high, reach behind me, or lift up a dead leg, and all of it adds to the pain. But I’m now ready to go out.

Lots of details I haven’t listed as we’d be here all day, but no holidays here, and I don’t have breakfast or eat during the day as I can only manage working by keeping my body empty of all but light fluids while in public. I can’t work every day and have to spend days in bed recovering from days working. (supplemented by PIP) Living in relentless pain and with broken sleep is part and parcel of disabled life. Considering when to end it is also part of it for many.

However, I also do DIY when in good enough shape, though not roofing! I have adapted everything I do to my level of disabilities. I can do many things when in the right state with the right adaptations and adapted tools, (supplemented by PIP) and things laid out for me.(though I pay with extra pain)
But, a few hours earlier and later on I will be entirely helplessly dependent on a (underpaid - DWP) carer (supplemented by PIP) and a direct alarm to fire service for my survival. (LFB & supplemented by PIP)

This is just what I go through in the first part of any morning to go out to work, launderette or shopping. It's taken a long time to get situations together so I can do this, but it still isn't reliable, and is a big chunk of every day alongside the getting to bed routine.

All you’ll see when I get there, is a woman in a wheelchair who could put a ready meal in a microwave if she can reach. (but may not be able to extract it and wouldn’t actually be able to eat it.)
Does that make me a "fully functioning" person getting PIP, in your eyes?

@MellowYellowWithaBitofPurple
Re your sister, I’m not being unsympathetic, just pragmatic about disabled life.
I was born with two disabilities and have collected others on the way through.

It takes time for disabled people to figure out their disabilities, the systems, what bits they can use and for how long, what they can and can’t rely on, and what work they may be able to do, when, how, and if the costs are worth it to them.
Don’t compare, many working disabled have come from where she is now. It’s like newish parents of two in the first year, comparing themselves to an experienced uber organized parent of six born over ten years, who makes it look easy because they’ve figured out systems, cheap au pairs, electronic calendars, and which battles to fight and how.

I’d advise sister to find a charity to help her fill out claim forms, and if possible is either gifted or seeks a loan for an electric run oil radiator, and an electric blanket. Both are cheap enough to run. Check her electric supplier and tariff is as cheap as possible. Hot water bottles are a Godsend. Layers, both with clothes and bedding is key to warmth. Woolly hat at night.
Other tips are focus on keeping one room warm. Create a false clingfilm ‘window’ with a gap between window glass and clingfilm (dry everything thoroughly first if possible) and make draft excluders (can be stuffed with rags, sand, out of date dried pulses etc) If it’s still well cold, place a towel or newspaper at the bottom of the outside of the clingfilm to collect moisture, + dry/ replace regularly to lower damp. (Everything I'm advocating I do or use myself. PIP only goes so far.)

Well said!!! It’s just a shame you have to explain due to the inconsiderate, Uneducated people on here and in real life.

People see my son going to uni and think ‘nothing wrong with him’. They don’t see that four days out of seven he is in bed, they don’t see his endless surgeries, his scars, his constant pain. They don’t see he requires a full time carer and batteries in his chest to keep him alive. God forbid that he decides one week to take some of his precious energy to go to sit in the pub with his loyal friends to see them f2f for a couple of hours, knowing that that means 48hours or so in bed recovering. That another week they take him to the cinema because they know he can’t go play football with them.
As I said before I will give every penny and more so that he doesn’t have to suffer/struggle and deal with idiot, judgmental people who think they know him and his life.
Going through the PIP process is soul destroying.

You said it better than I could. When you look at a disabled person, usually what you see on the surface is the result of a lot of hard work which would leave the average able bodied person exhausted before they even got over the doorstep, let alone doing a day’s work as well. As a benefit adviser I dealt with countless people in similar situations to your own and have tried to recount some of the difficulties I’ve come across. The fact that people keep quoting microwave ready meals, also makes me smile, because the PIP assessment doesn’t assess whether you can do this - it assesses whether you can prepare and/or cook a meal for one from scratch, using fresh ingredients. So again it demonstrates that people are completely clueless about what’s assessed and why, yet they feel perfectly entitled to comment on individual eligibility. It’s batshit.

This is why PIP assesses for fluctuating disabilities as well. The criteria state that the difficulties must be present for at least 50% of the time. What people fail to understand with fluctuating conditions is that you can be reasonably OK one day and completely incapacitated the next. They judge by the two hours sitting in the pub with your mates, rather than acknowledging the effort it takes to get there and that it’s a couple of hours of relief and normality in an otherwise very difficult life. I sometimes think there are people who really believe that disabled people should be institutionalised - out of sight and out of mind as they were 60 years ago. Some of the comments here just wipe out the hard work of many disabled campaigners over many years in getting their rights recognised and enshrined in law, and getting disabled people out of the institutions and into the mainstream as functioning members of society. The comments about ‘free cars’ and means testing all benefits say it all for me. The ignorance of the reality is breathtaking.

I’d advise anyone applying for PIP to look at this guide and also find a good benefits adviser to help with your application. The forms are long, and intrusive, and will be scrutinised for inconsistencies and contradictions in what the claimant says, and the contents will be used as a basis for the face to face assessment, so it’s important to get it right.

I’d also advise anyone who thinks applying for and securing a PIP award is a walk in the park, to look at the various guides available online, including the assessors’ handbook, which gives an idea of what disabled people are up against.

PIP isn’t about properly supporting the disabled. It’s a carefully devised points based system which seeks to minimise every aspect of disability in order to deny benefit wherever possible. And it’s usually the most severely disabled who end up falling foul of the system, because they’re the ones who cost the most to support.

You have to prove your impairment meets the criteria across a range of activities, and prepare to be challenged at every turn. For example. I once had a claimant turned down for the mobility component and awarded a low rate of daily living component, based on the fact that she had said she could drive. The assessor used the skills needed to drive to deny impairment in almost every other activity. The claimant had failed to mention that in order to drive, she had to have an automatic transmission and a car fitted with many adaptations to suit her disability, including full hand controls, electronic indicators and seat adaptors, so none of this was taken into account. It was resolved eventually but she had to go through the stress of applying for a reconsideration - which doesn’t just look at the bit you’re disputing, it reassess the whole award, so you risk losing what you’ve already got. It’s a nightmare and many people give up because it’s just too stressful to appeal on top of everything else they have to deal with from day to day. And it’s designed that way. If you don’t appeal it’s benefit savings by the back door.

They do and they don’t. The assessors either make up rubbish or they are totally incompetent- not sure which! I worked for NHS at a high level before becoming a full time carer. I would never have believed that the assessors lie but having been in assessments now myself they clearly do. Or they are totally incompetent and can’t remember one assessment from the next.
For instance they said that my son was examined by them and he was able to climb unto examination table by himself- he wasn’t touched by them and did no climbing of any sort. They said he was observed drinking from a standard glass of water- he doesn’t and he didn’t ( he used his specialist drinking bottle). They tried to make him speak for himself and threatened to stop assessment if he didn’t. Until I reminded of the laws and that I was his appointee and could speak for him. They then threatened to end assessment unless he took off his noise cancelling earphones- he took them off one ear at my request for one question then put them back on. The assessor insisted on discussing his penis and some medical problems with it. All clearly documented in medical notes they already had and medical notes I brought with me from his consultant. His penis and its issues had nothing to do with his other abilities/disabilities and was clearly just the assessors way of trying to embarrass a young teenage man. I have no idea why and if we hadn’t been in such need for the benefit to continue I would have taken him and left at the moment.
The assessor spent their time repeatedly re-asking questions about his more minor problems in an apparent attempt to trip him/us up. They then said they didn’t have time to assess his major disabilities as the time was up. I refused to allow interview to end until they confirmed they were in possession of his full medical information and until they wrote down his full medical diagnosis (approx ten lines long)
My son was reawarded his benefit but in the letter the assessor said that his condition was likely to improve as he grew and matured. My son is life limited and his consultant literally laughed out loud and asked if the assessor thought they were God.
The money is not worth the constant hassle and being treated like a piece of shit but sadly my son needs it so he can obtain his education.
So to anyone on here reading this, who thinks it is easy money- go give your head a wobble

Wow, envying someone chronic pain is great. I have fibromyalgia and chronic migraines. Between both of those, I struggle every day. On a surface, I live normal life, while I changed jobs when we moved countries a while ago, I go on every day walks with my dog (who's an active and very energetic athletic breed so a walk up and down the road will not cut it for her), I run, do long walks, bake, cook, normal chores, my job is seasonal and summers can be extremely heavy, with 12 hours and almost zero break, so come November and December, I'm so exhausted I can barely move sometimes. But you wouldn't see it unless you know me. You learn to live with pain, with constant exhaustion and other neurological symptoms to the extent where when other people would freak out if they felt the same suddenly, you just get on with that.

OK, I didn't want to make this post about me, just trying to explain how people can claim those things and have genuine reasons for that, even though it's not obvious for others.