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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To tell DS I won't take him for his driving test later (vile behaviour related!)

247 replies

boyohboys · 06/12/2023 12:22

Massive argument with DS 17 this morning started over him ignoring a very simple request I'd made. I came downstairs saw he'd ignored me so asked again. He continued to refuse, I insisted, he got sweary & vile and I shouted very loud and stomped off muttering what an ungrateful & selfish shit he was and how I would remember this next time he wanted a favour.

So, he has his driving test after school tonight, it's out of area & needs me to get him there - it's a 3 hour round trip so not insignificant favour either! I'm thinking I should message him to say given this morning's debacle I won't be taking you to your test this evening so either cancel or get yourself there (not really an option unless he can find a mate to take him!)

Next available test isn't until February & not taking him will escalate an already frosty relationship even further. Added to which this sort of thing stand-off has happened before & I've followed through on threats or imposed sanctions but nothing changes and he continues to think it's everyone else at fault (me, his dad, school, etc ) and be generally unpleasant.

YANBU: don't take him: he doesn't deserve the favour. End of conversation.
YABU: take him: don't escalate it further and it won't change anything long term but do impose other sanctions/punishment instead (?)

OP posts:
MelsMoneyTree · 06/12/2023 17:52

Ah OP it sounds tough Flowers

If his behaviour is intimidating, can you tell him that the next time he is threatening or abusive, you'll call the police? In RL, that is what happens when you're abusive or/and intimidating. And explain the repercussions a police record would have on the rest of his life.

Will the grandparents take the car back? I'd be tempted to drive it round to their house tonight - as a direct consequence of his actions today ie missing the test.

LaurieStrode · 06/12/2023 17:53

This sounds pretty dire. Your son calls you a cunt? What does your husband do about that? Anything?

You need family counseling rather urgently. This is more than teenage angst.

poetryandwine · 06/12/2023 17:56

He could be upset about this morning, OP. That would actually be good, I think, because I was worried from the way he spoke to you that he was half way to a very bad place. Being upset could show remorse, though poorly expressed.

I am glad you won’t be driving him anywhere else and I wish you would let him cobble together his own meals, but I really think your family needs help. No shame in that.

boyohboys · 06/12/2023 18:00

@MrsGalloway definitely self-sabotage along with stubbornness. He's failed twice before and I've told him there's no guarantees in passing but he's got to try and if he passes great but if fails pick himself up and try again.

Thanks for the supportive messages and DH has until very recently been 100% on board. About a month ago he told DS off for vaping in his room (absolute hard line no smoking/vaping in our house and he knows it) and tried to confiscate his vapes but instead of handing them over DS squared up to DH in the doorway goading him to react he was so aggressive it was horrible - DH was angry but walked away & said he wouldn't be put in that situation again as he might not walk away next time. Like I said, I don't blame him but it doesn't help the situation!!!

No loss, no trauma, no divorce - a very normal & comfortable suburban upbringing as far as we know. DH and I have been talking g today scratching our heads wondering "where the hell did we go wrong?!"

Stress/fear of failure is a trigger - GCSE time was a nightmare, he did very little revision (we're talking a few hours in total in the weeks running up to it) & we're convinced it was so if he did badly he could say 'well I did nothing' . and now we're nearly at A level time to possibly stress of driving test was too much.

I want to help him, I want to know what we've done wrong as it does always feel like he's blaming us for something but we don't know what! honestly if this was a partner he'd have been kicked out long ago!!!

OP posts:
boyohboys · 06/12/2023 18:07

Ok so outside help is being recommended and I think a good idea- what/where would we find this?

OP posts:
clarasienna · 06/12/2023 18:32

This sounds really hard. Please look into PDA type autism and see if this may be related. The fear of failure, so not trying, and lashing out at a simple request may be down to that. It might be nothing to do with this but if it is it may give you some avenues to pursue.

poetryandwine · 06/12/2023 18:32

I am also in a nice suburb. When I needed a (private) counsellor my GP had a couple of suggestions, based on recommendations from other patients. I think the wait for help on the NHS is very long.

I do wonder if your DS would respond better to the idea of family counselling, rather than being singled out? I believe rates are the same or similar

MrsGalloway · 06/12/2023 18:34

I’m not sure re outside help - a family counsellor? Could school signpost?

Just wanted to say that I don’t think his behaviour means you’ve done anything wrong, I was a nightmare teenager, difficult rude, told a lot of lies. My younger sister was not, I can see now my behaviour came from low self esteem and a fear of failure. I felt, as eldest child, under a lot of pressure (which wasn’t my parents fault although I think they’d say they would have done things differently in retrospect - we all would) and that was the root cause of a lot of my behaviour which tended to self sabotage. The example you gave of him walking 3.5 miles rather than say sorry was exactly me at 17, I’d have felt almost triumphant about it- like I’d beat them.

I grew up, learned some empathy, learned from natural consequences of my mistakes, which was hard. I get on great with my family, I have lovely friends, useful member of society etc. my Mum gives a wry smile when I’m dealing with my own teenager who is very like me.

Nicole1111 · 06/12/2023 18:35

Get the grandparents who bought his car to excitedly ring him and ask him how he did. Even better to show up with a cake or something. If that doesn’t leave him suitably ashamed of himself I’m not sure what will!

salamirose · 06/12/2023 18:47

Oh OP. I'm so sorry.

Has he been watching those angry men videos? Andrew thingy

MumblesParty · 06/12/2023 18:50

It sounds like he’s feeling out of his depth with everything - school, driving etc - and lashing out to deliberately sabotage things. How is he getting on at school, and are A levels the right thing for him?

It’s definitely easier to be grumpy and refuse to take the test than to take it and fail again.

My stepdad always used to say that the biggest fear men had was that they would fail to achieve what was needed of them, and that sense of inevitable failure drove them to do stupid and selfish things. I think that’s a bit of a simplification, but I’ve definitely observed it in some of the behaviours I’ve seen.

Allthecheeseplease · 06/12/2023 18:51

clarasienna · 06/12/2023 18:32

This sounds really hard. Please look into PDA type autism and see if this may be related. The fear of failure, so not trying, and lashing out at a simple request may be down to that. It might be nothing to do with this but if it is it may give you some avenues to pursue.

Was coming back to say something similar

MandyFriend · 06/12/2023 18:56

A few years ago my daughter (then 14) was going through a very difficult period in her life, so I attended a Parenting Teen's course, which I think saved both of us! It helped me to understand a lot of her behaviors and how/when to tackle them. The lady who ran the course I attended was called Alicia Drummond, but try searching for Parenting Teens workshops in your area.

PS Did he pass???

WowOK · 06/12/2023 19:21

Honestly, he cut off his nose to spite his face.

I wouldn't pay for another driving test. I wouldn't pay for any more lessons and id cancel the insurance on the car. I wouldn't be driving him around. Honestly, if he's Mr Big Bollocks and he thinks he can square up to his dad and disrespect his mum then I think maybe he needs to see what life is like outside of a loving home. @boyohboys where are you drawing the line? What is your non negotiable behaviour?

DreamingofBrie · 06/12/2023 19:23

Sorry OP, just sounds like a complete nightmare of a day.

No advice really - my eldest is 17 and I am often scratching my head over her behaviour (and it takes a feat of will to stay calm and loving sometimes). He's made his decision over the test, I would leave it now and not persue the driving issue at all until he mentions it again. I would probably not give any lifts in the future though, unless I was willing to (for example, I've stopped giving the kids a lift to or from school on my day off this year, following rude, entitled behaviour about it).

Aria999 · 06/12/2023 19:23

FWIW DS8 (who as I said seems worrying similar) has a diagnosis of oppositional defiant disorder, a sensory processing disorder and his therapist thinks he may have ASD though it wasn't flagged at his initial assessment and we are choosing not to have him assessed again for now.

Yalta · 06/12/2023 19:29

With ds and dd when I was infront of them I let all the words they called me bounce off me. To me it was their hormones talking not them.

TBH both ds and dd were masters in the art of self sabotage (combination of teenage hormones and ADHD)

At 17, Ds’s list of all the reasons he shouldn’t learn to drive were all the reasons your son has stated of why he cancelled his test

Are you being positive about his driving test and not mentioning the time it was going to take out of your day to take him

I only ask as my mother would never let me forget what she was going to do for me, before, during and even years after so I gave up asking her to do anything the negativity and annoyance far outweighed any pleasure I got.

DinaofCloud9 · 06/12/2023 19:47

ExcitingRicotta · 06/12/2023 13:31

This! Did you think about how he might be feeling this morning ?

He called her a cunt.

WombatChocolate · 06/12/2023 20:03

So sorry OP. I think you’re right to see this is a problem that needs outside help. In likelihood the difficulty will be getting him to see he has a problem and being willing to accept help.

I think I would speak to him about the issue and help being needed. He will probably react badly and storm off and refuse. I would then speak to school/college and also your GP. They will be able to sign post you and refer you to support. If he won’t engage, it might be support for you alone. Do it now before he’s 18.

It is likely he won’t thank you and be aggressive. But he has a problem and as a parent you need to do what you can to help. It might be that he becomes totally alienated and you ‘lose ‘ him for a while. It’s going in that direction anyway as he’s clearly in self-destruct and self-sabotage mode. He may well be feeling terrified about it all but doesn’t know what to do. If he won’t engage with help, all you can do is let him make his choices and possibly go into a decline, and be there when he sees the need for help. It won’t be pleasant or nice and I’m really sorry you’re going through this now and also what be to come. Sending support.

Itwasafterallallaboutme · 06/12/2023 20:17

"Besides, I want to do things for him - he's my son and I love him regardless. I want to see him succeed and help him learn these important life skills so sometimes I will bite my tongue or ignore things he should probably be doing (clean bedroom for example - not a hill I'm going to die on!)"

@boyohboys I don't mean to be insulting, but you are overwrought and understandably upset and confused, so I hope you know that I don't mean this horribly or judgementally at all, but does your son know how you feel about him, have you told him what you told us in that couple of sentences above? If you haven't told him that recently, could you write it down physically on either proper letter paper, or in a nice card, so that if he - maybe secretly - wants to keep it, he can hide it away somewhere.

Even if you have said this to him as well in the past, can you let him know - but not in the same letter - that even though you knew he was a teenager and would therefore become more challenging (they are actually supposed to be challenging within the safety of their own homes, that is how they learn - in their safe environment - what is and what isn't acceptable behaviour at home, and outside when mixing with other people. They do a similar thing with their friends and peers, with probably rather different behaviour), just like teenagers are supposed to do, as you did, and how his Dad did etc, you were concerned that his behaviour was, and is, maybe more intense than you were expecting, and whether there is a serious reason for that?

You obviously want him to know that you are always there for him to talk to, and get things off his chest to. And that even if he has done things he knows you would disapprove of, like smoking, drinking, even taking drugs, he can tell you without you loving him any less, or without you being disappointed in him (even if you are a bit), as you can just about remember being that age once, and we all did silly or irresponsible things sometimes. In fact even now, we come no-where near to perfection in our parenting skills. Maybe you could then ask him as gently as possible - but without being soppy - if there is anything that he feels is going seriously, and/or scaringly wrong in his life right now, or if he has any serious concerns about the future?

I personally, as a mother of adult sons myself, could not have been as strict as you seem to have been with your teenage son - I am not saying that you are wrong, your family and what is important to you, is not my family and what is important to me - I can only give you examples of what I was like with my teenagers.

I did not nag complain to them about the state of their rooms, if they wanted to live in untidy and even slightly dirty bedrooms, that was up to them, but if their bedrooms began to smell, or grow mould etc, then they knew that I would go in there, and I would throw out anything that looked too disgusting or smelled too bad, and they knew that I might remove something temporarily from their room - a threat of me removing some kind of their technology always seemed to work (thankfully I never had to follow through on it, but then I would give a few reminders, or maybe I was just very lucky!).

They also knew that if they wanted me to make them a meal then I needed clean plates and glasses from their rooms, so if they let them build up a bit in their rooms - which did happen quite frequently - I would not have anything to put their dinners on, so they needed to collect and hand wash some crockery etc very quickly (before the food got cold), then they could put the rest of their dishes in the dishwasher. The same happened with their clothes, they could leave them festering on their bedroom floors if they wanted, I wouldn't moan, but I also wouldn't go into their rooms and collect them and wash them for them. If they wanted me to clean their clothes they needed to put them in the linen bin in the bathroom, before they started smelling... Otherwise they had to do their own laundry. They were taught how to use the washing machine when they were about 14 years old.

I really didn't have many other rules when they were teenagers, they had about a 15 to 20 minute leeway for getting home at night, but once they went over that limit they might not be allowed to go out at all the next time, unless they had a good excuse reasonfor being late. I wouldn't have been as strict as you were OP the time you stopped him from going to a friends special party, especially as it was straight after a Covid lockdown had finished, so I suppose I think that you did make the wrong decision then, sorry. One more tactic that I sonetimes tried, left over from their infant days, was to ask them what punishment they thought they should have after breaking one rule or another. If you do try that, and he tells you "he doesn'tdeserve a punishment", then please ask him why he thinks that, and listen to his answer before you decide whether he is wrong or not.

Please consider what I am about to say before you dismiss it. Could you maybe admit to him that this parenting malarky didn't come with a rule book, we didn't have to be taught about, or take any exams in, "how to be the best parent we can be, or even how to be a reasonably adequate one", before we were "allowed" to procreate. So the absolutely hardest and yet most rewarding job, and the most important job, we are ever going to have to do in our lifetimes - that of being a parent - is left to little more than chance. Poor babies, poor children, poor teenagers, poor adults, ie poor us!

I really hope that you can very quickly get back to where you want to be with your dear son boyohboys. Sometimes if we are really lucky, they can turn back into our recognisable, loving, sons again just as quickly as they turned into snarling, fighting, ungrateful slobs 🙏🙏🧡

PS. Things could have changed drastically since I started to write this, as I write/type (on my phone with one finger, and taking breaks) very slowly. I hope that they have changed, and for the better.

FirstTimeTTC989 · 06/12/2023 20:22

Hmm part of me thinks you're being too harsh. Many, not necessarily the majority but many, teens go through a phase like this and excessive punishment only makes it worse. You need to let some of the language wash over you and sit down with him. Making him walk those 3 miles was not ok. Don't apologise, that implies you're in the wrong. But stop with the punishment, he's too old. And his behaviour screams anxiety and insecurity and you need to talk to him about it, calmly and non-judgmental.

hellsBells246 · 06/12/2023 20:26

FirstTimeTTC989 · 06/12/2023 20:22

Hmm part of me thinks you're being too harsh. Many, not necessarily the majority but many, teens go through a phase like this and excessive punishment only makes it worse. You need to let some of the language wash over you and sit down with him. Making him walk those 3 miles was not ok. Don't apologise, that implies you're in the wrong. But stop with the punishment, he's too old. And his behaviour screams anxiety and insecurity and you need to talk to him about it, calmly and non-judgmental.

Bollocks. If op lets disrespect like that go, her ds will behave like that to his female friends and girlfriends - if he ever has one. Op says he doesn't respect women.

Op absolutely should stand up for herself and not accept shitty behaviour. She's not a doormat.

OP -💐 for you. It all sounds very difficult.

ApiratesaysYarrr · 06/12/2023 20:26

mollyfolk · 06/12/2023 12:28

Oh take him. Be nice and encouraging. Then on the way home in the car I’d say something like how much he upset you this morning and that you were so upset that you started to wonder if you were a bit of a fool rearranging your day to take him to the test. But that you decided to take him because you love him and your always on his side. But again - how not on his behaviour is with the ignoring and swearing ect… and see what he says.

I just think protecting your relationship is the most important thing while still holding the boundary that he can’t treat you like that.

This is good advice.

Aria999 · 06/12/2023 20:31

FirstTimeTTC989 · 06/12/2023 20:22

Hmm part of me thinks you're being too harsh. Many, not necessarily the majority but many, teens go through a phase like this and excessive punishment only makes it worse. You need to let some of the language wash over you and sit down with him. Making him walk those 3 miles was not ok. Don't apologise, that implies you're in the wrong. But stop with the punishment, he's too old. And his behaviour screams anxiety and insecurity and you need to talk to him about it, calmly and non-judgmental.

Op apologized for specific things she thought she should have done differently. That's what normal adults do in functional relationships.

Admittedly there is a risk he will take that to mean OP acknowledges he wasn't at fault at all, but probably not as it's been made very clear to him that his behavior was unacceptable.

WombatChocolate · 06/12/2023 20:35

WombatChocolate · 06/12/2023 20:03

So sorry OP. I think you’re right to see this is a problem that needs outside help. In likelihood the difficulty will be getting him to see he has a problem and being willing to accept help.

I think I would speak to him about the issue and help being needed. He will probably react badly and storm off and refuse. I would then speak to school/college and also your GP. They will be able to sign post you and refer you to support. If he won’t engage, it might be support for you alone. Do it now before he’s 18.

It is likely he won’t thank you and be aggressive. But he has a problem and as a parent you need to do what you can to help. It might be that he becomes totally alienated and you ‘lose ‘ him for a while. It’s going in that direction anyway as he’s clearly in self-destruct and self-sabotage mode. He may well be feeling terrified about it all but doesn’t know what to do. If he won’t engage with help, all you can do is let him make his choices and possibly go into a decline, and be there when he sees the need for help. It won’t be pleasant or nice and I’m really sorry you’re going through this now and also what be to come. Sending support.

Adding to what I said, I think you have become very emotional about all (understandably) and you need to step back. The anger you feel leads you to hit back in a way which isn’t helpful. I understand why you do it - you are rightly cross with his behaviour - but the hitting back brings you to his level and you need to be the grown-up here.

He has a problem. This is clear. Being angry and issuing punishments is t solving it or making it better. The pair of you are caught in a cycle of fighting.

You apologised earlier and hoped he would do the same. He didn’t, but apologising for what you did was the right thing to do and didn’t mean you condoned his behaviour. You need to find a way to speak or write about how you love him and don’t want this cycle of conflict to continue. Probably at heart, he feels the same. But then there is also the telling him that he has a problem. It’s. It just with you but at school/college and with people he doesn’t like as well. He needs to hear that. And he needs to hear that you can see it’s really difficult for him and want to help him move forward and that you think you need help too…that you need some outside help. This is the message. And expect it not to go down well.
As others say, it might be easier to write it. You could tell him if its easier for him to write than talk about it, he can write back to you.

And do speak to the GP and his school. Ask for their help. They have seen it before NEA dthere are support services available. Don’t see these as failure or not for ‘people like you’ - but embrace what they can do and how they can help you deal with it all better,even if he won’t engage. If you do t this could spiral into a total breakdown of your relationship…so be brave and get some outside support, in the same way some families need to with difficult toddlers and pre-schoolers. Forget blame. Forget rights and ‘favours’ or punishments. Think more about the long term and getting help for a behaviour problem more than dealing with the individual instances of bad behaviour.

Best of luck.