Was we unreasonable to withdraw our child from a school church service?

[Dad0f1]

Hello everyone new member here just looking for some advice/reassurance that I/we've made the right decision regarding withdrawing our child from a church service at school.

So our DS who is our first child started Reception this September at our local CofE primary school and although neither myself or my OH are church goers we felt that this was the best school for him as the other practical nearby choices were a RC school or a two form entry state school which our DS would not have coped with.

And to be fair our DS has settled in nicely making lots of new friends and seems to be enjoying it however, the other week we was informed that the children would be attending a 'School Communion Service' in the nearby church that the school is attached to and not having a clue what this was I enquired with the Head of RE what the service entailed, how involved DS would be in the service and what was expected of him during the service.

As I suspected the service was in their words 'a simplified child friendly version of the Holy Communion Service' which would include bread and wine for those who were confirmed (as apparantly the children are offered the option to be confirmed if they wish in Y6) but the Reverend overseeing ther service likes to get the children involved so will offer all the children confirmed or not a wafer if they want one.
Also 'prompts' would flash up on a big screen at various points during the service to let the children know when to say 'Amen' etc.

Now to the reason why I/we chose to withdraw my DS from this service. Although the Head of RE made a point to explain that worship is voluntary at the school and that the children are free to take part in worship as much or as little as they wish. I very much doubt that children aged 4 or 5 can grasp the concept of this especially as they are at an age where they want to please the adults around them.
This is also made difficult for them not to be involved if they wish when they have 'prompts' flashing up on a big screen to help/nudge them into reciting a paticular phrase and when everyone around them is then repeating it parrot fashion.

Whilst we do want our DS to learn about Christianity we also want him to make up his own mind about whether to accept it or reject it in later life.
So AI/WBU to withdraw him from school church services that are being conducted like this or should I let him experience them bearing in mind his young age?

@JaniceJanice I agree that often faith schools are the only option but also that you may have other reasons like it being your closest school or the one best suited to your child for other reasons.

We have moved now but where we used to live, there was a C of E school 2 mins away, another C of E school 5 mins away and the nearest non denominational was 20 mins walk away. Sure we could have done that walk but I don't think it would have been unreasonable if we had gone for the school 2 mins ago. Our choice.

My husband has a different opinion, he believes in making people welcome he loves children and families attending church inwhatever capacity....because he is clearly a lot nicer then me. People ring our house as in his office number. The amount of people moaning because they NEED to getting their kids in a certain school, expecting him to pretend that they attend every week, wanting paperwork signed. When I tell them no they do need to come for twelve weeks they get an attitude on. I'm not going to be rude, I certainly don't mind helping those who need help but do not ever come to my door with double standards

What I’m trying to push home @mathanxiety is that overall Catholicism is a lot more full on - both in terms of the requirements to attend and intensity with all the sacraments in early childhood, as well as with the overall nature of the religion; requiring the Priest to confess for instance, if you’re a Protestant you sit at home and pray not needing an intermediary.

While confirmation and dedication to the respective faiths may be analogous, the social dynamics and expectations/demands at school are totally different. In Protestant schools the religious aspect is much more toned down as well as the social/cultural aspects - very low key. That doesn’t mean it isn’t important; but it isn’t dominant as it is in a Catholic school. Because Protestants have Sunday school and bible class within the church environment as well as all preparation classes for confirmation taking place in church.

We don’t do confession as I’ve said and we can’t receive communion until after confirmed or accepted as a member of the congregation and it is symbolic. We only do communion a few times a year!! While it is integral to the catholic mass and you believe it is the actual blood and body of Christ transformed by the Priest.

So I really don’t see why OP is getting so upset about a Protestant school it isn’t dedicating the child to the religion. Nor is it an intense environment with indoctrination.

I periodically attend Catholic Churches, synagogues and mosques…. Doesn’t make me a Catholic, Jew or Muslim.

@Muddybooties We don’t do confession as I’ve said and we can’t receive communion until after confirmed or accepted as a member of the congregation and it is symbolic. We only do communion a few times a year!!

Is this within a CofE church?

I agree- my son went to an RC school because it’s small, on our street and his friends and cousins were going to be in his class. The other school in walking distance was c of e (which I am and into which ds was baptised), but it’s much bigger and nowhere near as good. A non den school would have been a drive, which I didn’t want to do (although I could have).

Attending the RC but not going to mass was the compromise I and his other parents (who are atheists) agreed on.

Yes you were unreasonable (and your response to posters was a tad rude imho)

I can answer that one, @StarlightLime . It’s because respect, tolerance, and individual liberty, are fundamental British Values. Personally I think there are lots of other good reasons too, but those aside, they’re required to.

@Terfosaurus

Presby for me (but there are a lot of types of those)

For CofE, CofS, CofI, some will do communion every week, some 4-12 times a year.

A lot can depend on the priest/minister leading the church and how they want to steer things, leading to even more variation.

Thanks. I agree there's a lot of variety. I've never come across a church that only does communion a few times a year though!

@Terfosaurus

It can be to do with dwindling numbers, costs more for the special service so only put it on a few times a year. Or can be whatever theology the priest/minister is keen on.

Suits me but I don’t take it because I’m not confirmed… thinking about getting around to it! 😂

Some churches share a vicar with other ones so only have a ‘full’ vicar/rector every 4 weeks or so don’t they, so I can see them only doing communion on those weeks.

Yes makes sense. My Church is always busy, I believe we average 80 members per week but have over 100 regular attendees. So it's very different to a lot of people's experience.

IIRC communion doesn't have to be administered by a Vicar/priest. They can bless it and leave it for someone else to hand out. But then you'd still need someone to do that!

YABU and should’ve chosen a community school instead of a church one.

You’re right it doesn’t, I was just wondering if that might be one of the reasons why some churches don’t do it every/multiple times a week.

Yes, sorry. I wasn't saying you were wrong. In so used to my busy church (we have at least 5 ordained ministers who can help out when the actual Vicar is away) that I forget not every where is so lucky!

Will people STOP saying parents should choose a different school?!!

There are far more faith school places in England than there are church attending children. Most rural areas theres only 1 school choice locally of reasonable distance from home, often cofe.

we have no choice.

Terfosaurus
Its not "lucky" you have more ministers.

My area used to have more. The local population have chosen not to be Christian. We don't want religion, including in our schools.

All children are entitled to an education. The religious ones can also get their religious education but non-religious ones are entitled to not take part in religious acts. How does it harm you for some children to be withdrawn from those parts? Why should they have to travel much further away to go to a school* with a bit less religious bits when they can go to the nearest school and just not participate in the religious aspects?

*if that's even an option - they might not get into another school, there might not even be any other options within travelling distance

I absolutely understand your frustration over people playing the system ... it is underhand and must be very frustrating. BUT .... this is simply another argument against church schools. If they did not exist and all schools were of high educational standard then there would be no need for this chicanery. How .. under a state funded system of education for all children .. can we be setting religious hoops to jump through!? ... it is deeply wrong.
State education should be open to all children whatever the beliefs of their parents.

@Benibidibici hear hear. I can’t believe the number of unhinged people on this thread. There are not limitless amounts of primary schools for people to choose from, especially if you want to walk them to school. Our school does RE where they learn about all faiths, and last week they did a trip to a church to see and learn about it. Absolutely no problem with that. A communion-based activity - over my dead body would my child participate in that, and the same would go for easily 50% of his class.

Well based on the fact my church is full, and so are lots of the other local ones I'd say we are lucky that we don't have to share clergy.

@Terfosaurus

Wow this is amazing!! You are very lucky.

We have only just got a new minister after a few years of sharing with another church, but communion for the time being is still 4x a year. It could be due to where the church is - very diverse area and they like to be welcoming to all. Few hundred every week.

My old church it is definitely down to the low numbers, financials and tradition.

The religious ones can also get their religious education but non-religious ones are entitled to not take part in religious acts.

The non religious children or the non religious parents?!

How do know your kids won't want to be religious?

When I was confirmed as a late teen one of the others had found God in her 20s coming from atheist family.

Why are you all so hostile? Christianity doesn't turn out Shamima Begum's you know.

Is it really so bad to believe in an after life, etc?

I bet all of you atheists don't ban your children from the nativity play or stop them singing carols and that is hypocrisy of the highest order.

When you say non religious children you actually mean parents. They aren't old enough to have decided for themselves and it would be totally fine if they wanted to be a Christian. What is the worst that could happen? They believe something you don't?

@Benibidibici

Please could you try to be less offensive and abrasive to others.

I fully respect your decision to be atheist and that is 100% fine. So is the decision of your community.

I also am in agreement that religion does not belong in schools because it segregates children, promotes inequality, takes up valuable learning time, and does not foster inclusivity.

(I think they ought to keep religious learning and activities for the churches, synagogues, mosques etc)

However, within a church setting there are people of faith who are fully entitled to embrace and carry out their faith. I fully support this and I do think that @Terfosaurus is very lucky to have several fully qualified ministers there to carry out religious practices and to cater for the congregation.

I think you are forgetting how hugely important this is - massively so - for people of faith and the surrounding communities.

In terms of pastoral care ministers provide

• facilitation of care and activities for young children
• care of the elderly
• support for the bereaved
• support for the sick
• outreach for homeless people
• outreach for people struggling financially
• outreach for students
• outreach for refugees
• charitable donations and support for local and overseas projects

Our church and our minister is involved with all of the above - whether the people are Protestant, catholic, Muslim, Jew, atheist, Hindu or whatever else.

It is fine you you to say you’re happier to not have religion in schools. But not for you to discount @Terfosaurus gratitude for the service her church is able to provide which is valuable to her personally.