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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Was we unreasonable to withdraw our child from a school church service?

830 replies

Dad0f1 · 30/11/2023 12:01

Hello everyone new member here just looking for some advice/reassurance that I/we've made the right decision regarding withdrawing our child from a church service at school.

So our DS who is our first child started Reception this September at our local CofE primary school and although neither myself or my OH are church goers we felt that this was the best school for him as the other practical nearby choices were a RC school or a two form entry state school which our DS would not have coped with.

And to be fair our DS has settled in nicely making lots of new friends and seems to be enjoying it however, the other week we was informed that the children would be attending a 'School Communion Service' in the nearby church that the school is attached to and not having a clue what this was I enquired with the Head of RE what the service entailed, how involved DS would be in the service and what was expected of him during the service.

As I suspected the service was in their words 'a simplified child friendly version of the Holy Communion Service' which would include bread and wine for those who were confirmed (as apparantly the children are offered the option to be confirmed if they wish in Y6) but the Reverend overseeing ther service likes to get the children involved so will offer all the children confirmed or not a wafer if they want one.
Also 'prompts' would flash up on a big screen at various points during the service to let the children know when to say 'Amen' etc.

Now to the reason why I/we chose to withdraw my DS from this service. Although the Head of RE made a point to explain that worship is voluntary at the school and that the children are free to take part in worship as much or as little as they wish. I very much doubt that children aged 4 or 5 can grasp the concept of this especially as they are at an age where they want to please the adults around them.
This is also made difficult for them not to be involved if they wish when they have 'prompts' flashing up on a big screen to help/nudge them into reciting a paticular phrase and when everyone around them is then repeating it parrot fashion.

Whilst we do want our DS to learn about Christianity we also want him to make up his own mind about whether to accept it or reject it in later life.
So AI/WBU to withdraw him from school church services that are being conducted like this or should I let him experience them bearing in mind his young age?

OP posts:
Hardtime · 30/11/2023 16:27

mathanxiety · 30/11/2023 16:25

@Cinateel
Giving presents is not in any way, shape, or form related to the religious observation of Christmas.

The materialism associated with Christmas is there because the Holy Day has been hijacked. The traditions around the secular celebration of Christmas as it is experienced in the Anglophone world are a mishmash of Victorian era books, poems, and advertising copy that went viral, along with much older traditions such as Norse and other local mythology.

Well, the Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh weren't wrapped up under the tree but ...

pomers · 30/11/2023 16:27

YABU. You chose a church school which is funded in part through the church. You took a place that another Christian family could have used. Withdraw him and find another school

grass67 · 30/11/2023 16:29

@parksandrecs

I see you didn't address that almost all of the costs are met by the LA. Churches can't even fund churches! THEY ARE NOT PAYING TOWARDS SCHOOLS.

A compulsory purchase order would be very easy, the church can pay back the costs incurred by the LA (maintaining buildings) or be paid a nominal amount. Government legislation would be difficult to argue against.

Religion is the biggest cause of death in the modern world.

grass67 · 30/11/2023 16:31

@pomers how much do you think the church pays? How much do you think the school budget is?

Daisybuttercup12345 · 30/11/2023 16:31

rubyslippers · 30/11/2023 12:03

You sent your child to a CofE school
There’s going to be an element of worship
surely you were aware of this?

I think you really unreasonable
why can’t he experience going to a church? It will have zero impact on his choices later in life
You sound massively inflexible and OTT

Edited

This.
Entitled and ridiculous springs to mind.

Xmaswomble · 30/11/2023 16:33

@HappySonHappyMum you do realise Easter eggs —and a lot of other supposedly Christian traditions came from the Pagan festival of Eoaste don’t you? Christians didn’t start many of our now ‘traditional’ festivals or practices at all.

I wouldn’t let my child anywhere near a church service but I wouldn’t have sent mine to a COfE school as I think state funded religious schools are an abomination. The ones local to me are really struggling as no wants their kids to go to them.

mathanxiety · 30/11/2023 16:36

Pocketfullofdogtreats · 30/11/2023 16:10

Well, there's the world we'd like, and the world as it is. Do you want the OP's son to be Rosa Parks, standing up for her rights (sitting down!), changing the world? The difference is that he is a little kid. It would be lovely if he, sitting on his own back in the classroom and not allowed to join his friends when they taste wafers/sing songs/ learn about Pharaoh's soldiers drowning in the Red Sea/build temples from lolly sticks, etc. could change the mindset of his school, rather than this having the effect of 'othering' him and making him feel lonely and possibly the target of bullying. Maybe if the OP could get a few other parents onside it would work, so that there's a group of dch that don't attend. But seems unlikely to me. As has been extensively pointed out, ppl who send their dch to a religious school are likely to be tolerant of acts of worship.

Show quote history

If we don't challenge the world that we have we will never get the world we want. Or the world we say we want.

When we teach out children to never stick their necks out, that there is nothing worse than being different or standing out for any reason, to go along with the crowd because the alternative is social pariah status and there is nothing worse than that, we are imparting a toxic lesson.

Children learn it very fast and they in turn punish those who stand out. It's sad to see that culture is accepted as a given in UK schools and society.

Many people who send their children to a religious school are likely to have no real choice. They're not all ok with it by any means.

ghostyslovesheets · 30/11/2023 16:36

Yes @Xmaswomble but then everyone is free to celebrate Eoaste aren’t they - they don’t have to call it Easter? Easter is the Christian celebration

LimitedBrightSpots · 30/11/2023 16:37

NewFriendlyLadybird · 30/11/2023 13:39

Both DH and I are atheists. Sent children to the local CofE school. Didn’t withdraw them from any events in church — nor did the large numbers of Muslim parents at the school withdraw their children. Events like this are about community, fun, a bit of values and, frankly, building some cultural capital — a short cut to understanding, for eg, the Reformation, the Catholic Reformation, and vast quantities of Western art.

It takes a lot of work to indoctrinate someone, even a child. But not much to make them feel left out.

I think this is very true - children feel left out and sad very easily and a little reception child isn't going to understand the principle behind why they can't go. For future trips, please let your child remain with their 'pack' at school if at all possible. Otherwise you're causing them upset and depriving them of a shared experience with their classmates for what seem very shaky reasons.

widowtwankywashroom · 30/11/2023 16:38

You are massively unreasonable

mathanxiety · 30/11/2023 16:39

Muddybooties · 30/11/2023 16:15

Sorry I didn’t mean force… what I mean is it’s more intense, much more.

In a RC school you turn up in the morning, you have prayers before you go in, the Pope is on the wall as well as other religious stuff, your pray before snack and lunch, you have religious instruction, there are enrolment services within school, usual nativity and all that, then there are series of preparations for first confession, holy communion and confirmation, plus taking part and in all of this as parents, as well as the expectation that you attend mass and take part in the school and church community (though many don’t). As an aside there is also endless charity donations, endless, as you can’t have faith without action.

Protestant school (what I experienced), was that you have a 15minute daily assembly where you hear about admin, sing a few hymns and say the Lord’s Prayer, quick prayer before lunch and you’re done! (Other than nativity/carol service - they like a good sing song)

Our kids were verging on being peer pressured into first confession at 7 which would have led to first communion at 8 then confirmation at about 11. Thankfully the priest was amazing and he tried to explain to parents the huge commitment they were signing up to… and promised us he’d deal directly with any problems, so we opted out.

Show quote history

Of CoE school religious observance is 'religion lite' or as inconsequential as you say it is, what is the actual point of it?

SouthLondonMum22 · 30/11/2023 16:39

LardyCakeAgain · 30/11/2023 16:17

I had experience with church growing up, I still feel uncomfortable when an event is at a church.

So I assume you and other MNetters with similar beliefs don't agree with any of the services provided by churches and other religions across the country then? Mother and Baby Groups, Foodbanks, soup kitchens?

So many MNs answer posts from skint OPs telling them to try their local church food banks, baby banks, warming venue & winter services, parenting groups etc., but forget it's the congregation donating their tithe (traditionally 10% of our income) that pay for most of them - all while asking for nothing in return, not even church attendance.

You conveniently left out the part where I was referring to worship services such as at weddings and funerals.

There's also a difference between an adult choosing to go to a toddler group knowing they have to put up with a bit of religion at the end and a child who is impressionable and is too young to understand what they are saying amen for or why they are being encouraged to pray.

SheWentWest · 30/11/2023 16:40

I think withdrawing from the church school altogether would be the most reasonable
Course of action give your strong feelings on the matter of religion. I went to a C of E and have lovely memories of the services and harvest festivals. I’m not at all religious now but I do still enjoy going into churches and feel all nostalgic. You are being a bit hysterical

BlokeHereInPeace · 30/11/2023 16:40

Yeah I went to a C of E primary. Got to dress up and carry the candle sometimes which meant missing lessons, which was of course good. We always enjoyed the walk to the church, extra time out of school. Now think religious stuff is rubbish but don't get vexed if others like it.

It's a bit humiliating for young kids to be withdrawn from stuff.

LimitedBrightSpots · 30/11/2023 16:40

And as for teaching children that they shouldn't follow the crowd and shouldn't be afraid to be different, this is often cruelty dressed up as idealism imo. Some kids have the confidence to pull it off while others are just made miserable by having parents who insist they "stand out". It should be the child's choice whether to stand out or fit in.

Hardtime · 30/11/2023 16:40

ghostyslovesheets · 30/11/2023 16:36

Yes @Xmaswomble but then everyone is free to celebrate Eoaste aren’t they - they don’t have to call it Easter? Easter is the Christian celebration

And many people don't realise that Easter is the most important part of the Christian year. It is very fortunate that the Jew that we follow told us to turn the other cheek because we are a group of one and a half billion people that it seems entirely acceptable to abuse, criticise or make fun of.

CactusPeach · 30/11/2023 16:42

Withdrawing him was an OTT reaction, going to a few services like this is not going to affect his ability to make up his own mind later, especially as you yourselves aren't practicing Christians.
If participating in such services swayed children to becoming Christians there would be a lot more active Christian's than there are.
I'm another one who went to a church school, and had an actively Christian parent, am agnostic now though.

VimtoVimto · 30/11/2023 16:43

My children attended a C of E primary school as it was the only one in the village but although they attended occasional church services they never involved communion. I could understand if it was aimed at Year 5/6 pupils but not reception children.

Beautiful3 · 30/11/2023 16:44

My mum used to withdraw me from all religious trips and festivals. I felt embarrassed to be excluded from fun stuff. I missed out, and just sat in the library for the whole duration. You already know it's a religious school, just let him go to fit in with his friends.

CurlewKate · 30/11/2023 16:46

@Hardtime "
And many people don't realise that Easter is the most important part of the Christian year."

Really? I've never met one. I suppose a some will think Christmas is....

SouthLondonMum22 · 30/11/2023 16:47

CurlewKate · 30/11/2023 16:46

@Hardtime "
And many people don't realise that Easter is the most important part of the Christian year."

Really? I've never met one. I suppose a some will think Christmas is....

Me either. I thought it was well known.

Mittens1717 · 30/11/2023 16:47

Goodornot · 30/11/2023 13:32

I genuinely don't understand why parents are so afraid of this and yet send their children to a CofE school.

What would happen if your child did become a Christian? It isn't harmful. There weren't any Christian extremist groups here last time I looked.

This

Terfosaurus · 30/11/2023 16:49

Catsonskis · 30/11/2023 15:35

But he’s being offered a wafer, not communion…just a bit of gross cardboard tasting wafer that is meaningless. And I say this as a catholic who went to a catholic high school where we did receive communion if we wanted.

i honestly wouldn’t get bothered about it, just shrug it off. It’s literally meaningless! He’s not going to suddenly become a devout Christian at 5 because he says Amen a few times!

but as others say, if you’re really unhappy enrol him elsewhere!

Surely it's a Communion wafer. And therefore not meaningless?

BabaBarrio · 30/11/2023 16:50

YANBU to withdraw your child, but think on what he is learning from you by you withdrawing him. What are you going to give him as a reason? That he is too young? When he sees children his own age going. You are at risk of making Christianity seem bad or forbidden or adult only.

Too “Whilst we do want our DS to learn about Christianity we also want him to make up his own mind about whether to accept it or reject it in later life.” If this is your objective, why are you withdrawing him from an age appropriate way to learn about Christianity?

LardyCakeAgain · 30/11/2023 16:50

CurlewKate · 30/11/2023 16:46

@Hardtime "
And many people don't realise that Easter is the most important part of the Christian year."

Really? I've never met one. I suppose a some will think Christmas is....

You won't meet a Christian who thinks Christmas is more important than Easter faith-wise - Christ dying for our sins is the most important element of our faith. Its the foundation of everything we believe in, including the holy trinity. The birth of Jesus is recognised by other religions, including Muslims, but as a prophet only. For Christians, His death was the climax to his preaching and prophecy fulfilled.