Was we unreasonable to withdraw our child from a school church service?

[Dad0f1]

Hello everyone new member here just looking for some advice/reassurance that I/we've made the right decision regarding withdrawing our child from a church service at school.

So our DS who is our first child started Reception this September at our local CofE primary school and although neither myself or my OH are church goers we felt that this was the best school for him as the other practical nearby choices were a RC school or a two form entry state school which our DS would not have coped with.

And to be fair our DS has settled in nicely making lots of new friends and seems to be enjoying it however, the other week we was informed that the children would be attending a 'School Communion Service' in the nearby church that the school is attached to and not having a clue what this was I enquired with the Head of RE what the service entailed, how involved DS would be in the service and what was expected of him during the service.

As I suspected the service was in their words 'a simplified child friendly version of the Holy Communion Service' which would include bread and wine for those who were confirmed (as apparantly the children are offered the option to be confirmed if they wish in Y6) but the Reverend overseeing ther service likes to get the children involved so will offer all the children confirmed or not a wafer if they want one.
Also 'prompts' would flash up on a big screen at various points during the service to let the children know when to say 'Amen' etc.

Now to the reason why I/we chose to withdraw my DS from this service. Although the Head of RE made a point to explain that worship is voluntary at the school and that the children are free to take part in worship as much or as little as they wish. I very much doubt that children aged 4 or 5 can grasp the concept of this especially as they are at an age where they want to please the adults around them.
This is also made difficult for them not to be involved if they wish when they have 'prompts' flashing up on a big screen to help/nudge them into reciting a paticular phrase and when everyone around them is then repeating it parrot fashion.

Whilst we do want our DS to learn about Christianity we also want him to make up his own mind about whether to accept it or reject it in later life.
So AI/WBU to withdraw him from school church services that are being conducted like this or should I let him experience them bearing in mind his young age?

It would be unusual though for someone in this country to have no experience at all with church due to weddings, funerals and christenings. You don't need to go to church at 4 with school to know how to behave as an adult at those things.

I had experience with church growing up, I still feel uncomfortable when an event is at a church.

Will you be withdrawing him from the nativity play too? That’s got religion in it?
I have never heard of a priest handing out communion to non confirmed children neither. And no 5 year olds would be confirmed.

Well, there's the world we'd like, and the world as it is. Do you want the OP's son to be Rosa Parks, standing up for her rights (sitting down!), changing the world? The difference is that he is a little kid. It would be lovely if he, sitting on his own back in the classroom and not allowed to join his friends when they taste wafers/sing songs/ learn about Pharaoh's soldiers drowning in the Red Sea/build temples from lolly sticks, etc. could change the mindset of his school, rather than this having the effect of 'othering' him and making him feel lonely and possibly the target of bullying. Maybe if the OP could get a few other parents onside it would work, so that there's a group of dch that don't attend. But seems unlikely to me. As has been extensively pointed out, ppl who send their dch to a religious school are likely to be tolerant of acts of worship.

I am grateful to my mother that she didn't pull me out of religious services at school, even though she hated them. I was a shy child and would've hated to be singled out in that way.

Absolutely batshit.

The first answer and the best answer.

It would be lovely if he, sitting on his own back in the classroom and not allowed to join his friends when they taste wafers/sing songs/ learn about Pharaoh's soldiers drowning in the Red Sea/build temples from lolly sticks, etc. could change the mindset of his school, rather than this having the effect of 'othering' him and making him feel lonely and possibly the target of bullying. Maybe if the OP could get a few other parents onside it would work, so that there's a group of dch that don't attend. But seems unlikely to me. As has been extensively pointed out, ppl who send their dch to a religious school are likely to be tolerant of acts of worship

Yes, unlikely to work in this case where there were other school options available and the parents, including the OP, chose to send their children to the CofE school.
If it was in another area where the only option was the CofE school then there might have been more parents who did not want their child to attend a religious school but had no choice and therefore perhaps more children who were withdrawn from religious services.

@HappySonHappyMum You do realise you're being very silly, don't you?

Sorry I didn’t mean force… what I mean is it’s more intense, much more.

In a RC school you turn up in the morning, you have prayers before you go in, the Pope is on the wall as well as other religious stuff, your pray before snack and lunch, you have religious instruction, there are enrolment services within school, usual nativity and all that, then there are series of preparations for first confession, holy communion and confirmation, plus taking part and in all of this as parents, as well as the expectation that you attend mass and take part in the school and church community (though many don’t). As an aside there is also endless charity donations, endless, as you can’t have faith without action.

Protestant school (what I experienced), was that you have a 15minute daily assembly where you hear about admin, sing a few hymns and say the Lord’s Prayer, quick prayer before lunch and you’re done! (Other than nativity/carol service - they like a good sing song)

Our kids were verging on being peer pressured into first confession at 7 which would have led to first communion at 8 then confirmation at about 11. Thankfully the priest was amazing and he tried to explain to parents the huge commitment they were signing up to… and promised us he’d deal directly with any problems, so we opted out.

If you send your child to a CofE church, you have to accept that they come with an element of religion in the day to day life of the school. If you object that much, you chose the wrong school.

For what it's worth, I went to a CofE primary school, that was fairly "churchy", and spent a significant proportion of my own teaching career at a very "high church" CofE school, and I'm still as atheist as they come.

I had experience with church growing up, I still feel uncomfortable when an event is at a church.

So I assume you and other MNetters with similar beliefs don't agree with any of the services provided by churches and other religions across the country then? Mother and Baby Groups, Foodbanks, soup kitchens?

So many MNs answer posts from skint OPs telling them to try their local church food banks, baby banks, warming venue & winter services, parenting groups etc., but forget it's the congregation donating their tithe (traditionally 10% of our income) that pay for most of them - all while asking for nothing in return, not even church attendance.

But (genuine question) how do you expect him to have a concept or understanding of what is being offered to him, if you withdraw him from the off-site activities that will enable him to make up his mind in Yr6...?

I'm Jewish, and I went to CofE and RC schools because they were the better ones, educationally, in our area. My parents let me attend church services off-site in Primary (I used to be the one called upon to read things during services) and Masses during Senior... it didn't do me any harm, whatsoever, gave me a rounded understanding of different religions and, actually, a respect for the Faiths of my friends and their families that otherwise, I might not have had. No one rammed Christianity or Catholicism down my throat or tried to brainwash me into converting - although if that's what I'd decided I wanted to do, I would have had a long baseline from the age of 5 as to what I would have been entering into.

Our off-site visits during Primary to the church attached to the school were fun, especially at Christmas time (because my family doesn't really celebrate that). When my own kids were younger, I let them do the same - and, they're 27 and 19 now... and still Jewish.

I think you're actually already making the choice for your son regarding religion, which is doing him a disservice. It's surely not too late for you to change your mind regarding this trip...? Because he will be the odd-one-out and, believe me, at his age that feels like the world is ending somewhat.

That's a horribly tone deaf response.

There are people out there whose 'experience with church' as children includes rape and molestation and other abuse.

I don't want them exposed to religion while they are young enough to believe everything they are told by authority figures

Do you tell your children not to believe what the teachers (those authority figures) tell them about anything else? I'd have thought that renders them pretty much unteachable.

@TomeTome

You can see what’s involved here for a first confession and first communion (all of which usually is done in coordination with school)… there isn’t anything like this at a Protestant school, all very relaxed.

https://parish.rcdow.org.uk/millwall/sacramental-prep/confession-communion/

I'm Christian, but have a good friend who is a very devout and scholarly Muslim. He wanted his child to attend a school at which respect for religion is demonstrated and enrolled the child if a CofE primary school.
His instructions to the child were to take part in the prayers and religious activities of the school as a mark of respect for them allowing admission.
Outside of school, the whole family are active, practising Muslims.

@TomeTome forgot to tag you in my reply

Excellent

@Ponderingwindow sorry if you're triggered my comment - I'm not a teacher but if I was I would definitely at least eye roll at the OP withdrawing their child from collective worship after knowingly sending them to a CofE school. Not sure how you think that would make a child excluded - the OP is excluding their own child in this scenario. I'm not sure I understand your point...

YABU you chose to go to a religious school and so part of that is taking part in the religious services/celebrations.

We we’re not religious but we had to move and it was the only school available, so my mum told us to believe in God etc.
But it made me not believe in God at all.
Then as a young teen I started believing in God.

Now as an adult I am not religious but I’m very tolerate of all religions.

So me going to a religious school didn’t force me into a religion I didn’t believe in.

As an ex teacher it would also worry me when parents stopped their kids from joining in things.
Its important that they get a wide range of views and experiences.
And you don’t want your child being so isolated amongst his peers.

are you seriously asking that you poster to prove your daft statement that this is definitely the school trying to “indoctrinate” young children?

😂

Same with many other institutions and religions @mathanxiety - its sadly very widespread anywhere you have access to children, hence the intense safeguarding training that church wardens etc. are made to do now. That abuse of power is on the abusers, not the religion as a whole, and many of us Christians feel the same about child abuse as the atheist population.

@Cinateel
Giving presents is not in any way, shape, or form related to the religious observation of Christmas.

The materialism associated with Christmas is there because the Holy Day has been hijacked. The traditions around the secular celebration of Christmas as it is experienced in the Anglophone world are a mishmash of Victorian era books, poems, and advertising copy that went viral, along with much older traditions such as Norse and other local mythology.

This. Your friend is a smart respectful man.

Does your child believe in Father Christmas?

I don’t see this as any different, as he is plastered all over TV, in songs, movies, pictures, conversations etc.

And Father Christmas is something we all agree is made up but we still encourage our kids to believe in him until they are older.