Was we unreasonable to withdraw our child from a school church service?

[Dad0f1]

Hello everyone new member here just looking for some advice/reassurance that I/we've made the right decision regarding withdrawing our child from a church service at school.

So our DS who is our first child started Reception this September at our local CofE primary school and although neither myself or my OH are church goers we felt that this was the best school for him as the other practical nearby choices were a RC school or a two form entry state school which our DS would not have coped with.

And to be fair our DS has settled in nicely making lots of new friends and seems to be enjoying it however, the other week we was informed that the children would be attending a 'School Communion Service' in the nearby church that the school is attached to and not having a clue what this was I enquired with the Head of RE what the service entailed, how involved DS would be in the service and what was expected of him during the service.

As I suspected the service was in their words 'a simplified child friendly version of the Holy Communion Service' which would include bread and wine for those who were confirmed (as apparantly the children are offered the option to be confirmed if they wish in Y6) but the Reverend overseeing ther service likes to get the children involved so will offer all the children confirmed or not a wafer if they want one.
Also 'prompts' would flash up on a big screen at various points during the service to let the children know when to say 'Amen' etc.

Now to the reason why I/we chose to withdraw my DS from this service. Although the Head of RE made a point to explain that worship is voluntary at the school and that the children are free to take part in worship as much or as little as they wish. I very much doubt that children aged 4 or 5 can grasp the concept of this especially as they are at an age where they want to please the adults around them.
This is also made difficult for them not to be involved if they wish when they have 'prompts' flashing up on a big screen to help/nudge them into reciting a paticular phrase and when everyone around them is then repeating it parrot fashion.

Whilst we do want our DS to learn about Christianity we also want him to make up his own mind about whether to accept it or reject it in later life.
So AI/WBU to withdraw him from school church services that are being conducted like this or should I let him experience them bearing in mind his young age?

This. You chose the school and the church services are part of its ethos.

Everyone always says “oh I’ll let my child choose when they are older”. But how can you choose a religion without experience of what it means to participate?

I was brought up as part of the Church of England and although I don’t practice now, I know how it works. I wish I’d had the chance to visit mosques and temples as a child as well and then they wouldn’t seem so alien to me.

You could have easily answered any questions in a child appropriate way “some people believe that God etc etc, Daddy and I don’t believe that but you can make up your own mind, what do you think?” And the answer will change over time. As it is your child will just believe the same as you because they don’t know what it means to experience religion.

Because the churches founded them, built them, maintain them, own the buildings. I suppose there could be lots of compulsory purchase orders made and the market rate and maintenance paid by tax payers, but the current arrangement is the best value for the LA.

For a small child it's just going to be a bit of fun with their friends, the religious part will pass them by completely.

My DD went to a rather religious Junior School, she did all the services etc, and came out totally unconvinced by it all. We are not religious, some of her friends families were very religious she went to Christian events with them sometimes and church run summer schools most years (very useful for keeping them occupied for the odd week in the summer holidays). Totally no effect on her (lack of) Christian beliefs, but she had fun.

@SevenButterflies Churches pay 10% of the maintenance costs.

That can be part of choosing when they are older. It certainly isn't necessary to participate at 4 or they will never be able to choose a religion.

Public funding shouldn't go to state schools unless those schools are willing to support the diversity of their students. Sounds like a one fits all school and not interested in students. I'd look for somewhere for accepting. Religious schools are not about tolerance. They're about carbon copy pew filling.

You don't have to actively participate in a religious ritual to understand about the religion concerned. I have never heard anyone say they don't want their children to learn about religion.

It's easy to over think this kind of thing.
My DC went to the village Cof E school which was opposite the church. They had Christingle and harvest festival in the church which they enjoyed.
Neither DH nor I have any religeon.
The DC are fully grown adults and atheists now. I don't think a few primary school services influenced them one way or another.

How do you expect him to make an informed choice when he is older if he doesn't have the information? My four children were all given the information because they took part in religious education and we took them to church. When they were old enough to make their own decisions, three of them decided it wasn't for them. I was happy that they had made informed choices.
Are you going to insist your child doesn't take part in the school nativity play? and doesn't sing Christmas songs/carols? I'd be surprised if a C of E school doesn't have these. And what about you at home? Are you having presents to celebrate the birth of Christ? Your choice to withdraw him doesn't make any sense to me.

I would be really really surprised at any RC church/school pushing partaking of sacraments by a non-RC child. I think it’s far more likely the non-RC children might feel slightly excluded from the things. Which “sacrament” are you saying your children were pressured into joining in with?
From memory there are only 7 sacraments, communion, marriage, ordination, confession(reconciliation), baptism, when your sick, and the seventh escapes me…but none of them would be foisted on a child.

@SevenButterflies

how much do you think the. church funds a primary school?

I mean they might make a tiny donation to building works...but in terms of budget, nothing, maintenance? staffing cost? heating?

Such a crappy argument. Schools were set up by churches to brainwash children and lean on parents to give their income to the church (back in the day) A very simple compulsary purchase order for a nominal amount would irradiate us of the problem of religion playing a part in children's education!!

Religion had divided the world for years, it has caused most wars and continues to, Many millions of people have died due to religion.

YWBU

I'm not Christian but would never take dc out of such an experience. They are more likely to feel excluded and different by such an action. But that's my opinion

Why won't he have the information? You can learn about religion without participating in it. OP isn't against religious education.

And this right here is the only reason children will feel excluded. Teachers are supposed to be tolerant and positively support diversity. Instead, we get statements about laughing in the staff room.

I went to two church schools, now cheerfully agnostic.

Why would a faith school celebrate diversity (of religion) amongst it's pupils?
It's an idiotic notion.

This thread just proves how some on MN think it's fine to be offensive about Christians, our beliefs and festivals. As others have pointed out, if you wish to celebrate a winter yule festival go right ahead, but it's not Christmas, which is a Christian celebration, whatever you think about how someone chose the date 1000+ years ago. I can't think of any other religion that would be allowed this level of ridicule on here without the thread being removed, including some of the comments about the communion service, host and wine. Because our religion teaches us to turn the other cheek to offence from others, don't mistake that for apathy.

Usually the state took over a church school. Rather than pay for the site and the buildings the state took on the running costs, and allowed the church to retain some influence in the governing body.

Over time it has worked out well for the state financially.

Of course, you could instigate a campaign for LAs to buy out the church owned sites and make the schools secular. I suspect it would bankrupt the LAs though.

@SouthLondonMum22 I was brought up in a not particularly religious Cof E home. About ten years ago I found out that through a direct female line I have Jewish ancestry. In fact, my cousin, armed with all the family information went to see the Rabbi and had it confirmed that we are in fact entitled to attend Synagogue. As a result, they go to Synagogue and are learning all about it. I haven't done so though I'm very interested, because I have no experience of Synagogue and would feel uncomfortable going there. Any adult who has no experience of church would feel the same, and it would take someone very unusual, like my cousin, to walk through those doors as an adult.

I went to a Catholic (convent) infant school although my parents were C of E - same reasons as you have. The only thing I didn’t attend was Instruction and a funeral - I didn’t like not attending as I had to do schoolwork instead, on my own with a teacher supervising me.
I did like the Catholic Church services - particularly the ash cross on my head at Easter that wasn’t to be washed off 🤣. I remember really liking going to the Catholic Church, and recall bits about Catholicism, particularly saints days as we always had a treat! I was sent to C of E Sunday School and brownies as well by my parents. I’m not converted to catholic and don’t practice any religion- though sit on the fence re beliefs.
I later worked with adults with added needs and one was always so distressed at Xmas when withdrawn from all Xmas events due to her mum’s beliefs.
I wouldn’t worry a church service will indoctrinate your child, or even a few - they’re more child friendly now, and it’s also part of being part of his class and sharing different experiences with his peers as well as about the religious bit of the overall outing.

100% agree. YABVVVU

Yep, yabu and ridiculous…..but I guess you’ve probably got the hint 21 pages in… My DC go to a school where they attend a religious service at least twice a week, none of them ‘believe’, and through the experience they have been able to make their own decision. More interestingly two of them actually enjoy the services, despite having no religious beliefs. I’d be very happy for them to experience multiple religions, it can only be beneficially educational.

I presume you don't celebrate Christmas by giving him gifts as the Three Wise Men did to Jesus or Easter eggs either which celebrate the Jesus' new birth after ascending into heaven to sit at the right hand of God on Easter Sunday. He'll be deciding whether to participate in those Christian celebrations at a later date too will he?