Was we unreasonable to withdraw our child from a school church service?

[Dad0f1]

Hello everyone new member here just looking for some advice/reassurance that I/we've made the right decision regarding withdrawing our child from a church service at school.

So our DS who is our first child started Reception this September at our local CofE primary school and although neither myself or my OH are church goers we felt that this was the best school for him as the other practical nearby choices were a RC school or a two form entry state school which our DS would not have coped with.

And to be fair our DS has settled in nicely making lots of new friends and seems to be enjoying it however, the other week we was informed that the children would be attending a 'School Communion Service' in the nearby church that the school is attached to and not having a clue what this was I enquired with the Head of RE what the service entailed, how involved DS would be in the service and what was expected of him during the service.

As I suspected the service was in their words 'a simplified child friendly version of the Holy Communion Service' which would include bread and wine for those who were confirmed (as apparantly the children are offered the option to be confirmed if they wish in Y6) but the Reverend overseeing ther service likes to get the children involved so will offer all the children confirmed or not a wafer if they want one.
Also 'prompts' would flash up on a big screen at various points during the service to let the children know when to say 'Amen' etc.

Now to the reason why I/we chose to withdraw my DS from this service. Although the Head of RE made a point to explain that worship is voluntary at the school and that the children are free to take part in worship as much or as little as they wish. I very much doubt that children aged 4 or 5 can grasp the concept of this especially as they are at an age where they want to please the adults around them.
This is also made difficult for them not to be involved if they wish when they have 'prompts' flashing up on a big screen to help/nudge them into reciting a paticular phrase and when everyone around them is then repeating it parrot fashion.

Whilst we do want our DS to learn about Christianity we also want him to make up his own mind about whether to accept it or reject it in later life.
So AI/WBU to withdraw him from school church services that are being conducted like this or should I let him experience them bearing in mind his young age?

Yabu - why send him to a church school and then not want him to attend church?

Of course it is, it might be inclusive but its basis is Christianity, the clue is in the name. Go and have a look at any church to see how many additional services there are at Christmas.

No its not outrageous. Its outrageous to go onto the Internet and declare you've decided everyone agrees with you.

It's not 'her' son. The OP is a bloke. Probably here looking for validation from women because his wife thinks he is being unreasonable.
That went well then.

Was we unreasonable? Yes.

The days of Christmas being a religious festival have long passed.

People who have a religious belief are going to go to church, but the vast majority are going to do Black Friday and Cyber Monday and shop til they drop, then spend the holiday gorging themselves on Pringles and plum pudding and knocking back Pims and engaging in Drama with their ILs, with no thought whatsoever to the religious aspect.

I don't disagree with some of that, although using the implication that religion is necessary in order to have a moral compass does not sit easily with me. - learning ABOUT Christianity is culturally important here because so much art and music is based around this. I have no problem with children learning about this.

But for the state to be funding schools that actively project and teach one particular religion as the truth is fundamentally wrong; and it is unacceptable that parents (like the OP) are having to make such difficult decisions about where to send their child to school. One school does not seem right for their child for practical reasons, the other for religious ones. What to do? What they have done is chosen one school and have tolerated the religious bias up to the point when an unsuitable act of worship is planned - and at that point they withdrew him from that activity. They did not wish him to be involved in a communion service. That makes perfect sense - it is not a concept for a small child to be faced with when not of an age to understand what symbolism is - and they have done the right thing in removing him from that.

Millions of people have attended church schools of different denominations and attended services, it hasn’t stopped them from making up their own minds as adults. All young children have a limited understanding of the service. I think withdrawing him is just making him a bit different and not really a way of making him more open minded. As you have selected a school for him where this situation will arise from time to time I would just go along with it but as he gets older let him know that there are different religious beliefs in the world and some people don’t believe in God and view the Bible as a mix of history and stories but other people do have a faith.

The days of Christmas being a religious festival have long passed.

It was a midwinter festival that the church purloined for their own ends! It was a secular festival for far longer than it was a Christian one.

You felt that a faith based school was a better choice than a two-form secular school.

If the secular aspect was so important to you, you should have prioritised the two-form secular school.

No option is perfect, you balance up the benefits and drawbacks and make your choice, then accept that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks

YABU. It would have been fun, an experience out of the classroom with
friends. I very much doubt anything he learned will affect his decision to/not to embrace religion when he’s older. Chill.

Why did you choose CofE not RC or the other school?

Maths? Geography? ICT?

You don't just withdraw your children from lessons in a state school

It is a religious festival for some people . Your use of “bless” is very patronising

Yup me too - I still go to church on Christmas Eve because I always did and I love carols- but I don’t take communion!

I imagine OP is long gone, but just to give my input in case you are still reading replies - I attended a church primary and high school. I'm still in touch with my school friends and very few have gone on to practice Christianity/attend church. I wouldn't worry about forcing it on him. I mean to some extent a whole way of life is forced on a child via parents but it doesn't stop the child doing what they want once they are old enough.

I would worry it may do more damage him being excluded from something his classmates are doing, that is the sort of thing you might recall when you are older.

We don't do St. Nicholas or Santa, we do Joulupukki - yule goat-man who is not a religious figure and stems from a different tradition, and done entirely tongue-in-cheek, no trying to convince doubting children.

It is absolutely outrageous. It's a holdover from the days when people regardless of their religious beliefs had to celebrate their weddings in the CoE, when the CoE was basically an administrative arm of the state, working to keep non-conforming protestants, Catholics, and Jews in their place.

Church schools operate on the basis of separation from the state in the US. Of you choose a church school for your child, you pay fees. You will not find yourself in the position of having nonootion but to send your child to a church school as public schools are obliged to take in every child living within their catchments.

Interestingly, one of the key figures in establishing the principle of secular state schools and the RC school system in the US was one 'Dagger John', the nickname of the RC archbishop of NYC in the mid 19th century.

With respect @mathanxiety protestantism is different to Catholicism.

Catholics view the wine and wafer as the actual body and blood of Christ.

For Protestants it is symbolic.

Catholics devote themselves to the church with all three sacraments being of equal importance starting at the age of 7 with first confession.

Protestants are baptised, but then don’t get confirmed or take part in Holy communion until they are mid teens.

Also Catholics believe if you aren’t a catholic you are going to hell.

There are a lot of differences and I think you are seeing it from a purely catholic standpoint where the gravitas of things is a bit more full on (to say the least).

Just because the vast majority don’t go to church doesn’t mean it’s any less of a Christian festival!? What are you on about? You’ve got it all backwards.

It IS a religious festival - the clue is in the Christ mass bit!

by all means celebrate Yule or the solstice or Saturnalia as alternatives but CHRIST mass is, you know, about Christ!

Perfectly reasonable to do so. One thing you could do as part of this is to help your child understand that there are people in this country of differing religions, who are not sure, and those of no religion. Many children at a religious school are of different faiths or none.

Then surely in that case we should change the first 6 letters of Christmas, or indeed change the name of the celebration altogether as many already do. I cant see that happening across the world though 🤦‍♀️🤣
Personally I would choose to keep the first 6 letters when celebrating Christmas, each to their own. 😊

I think people are either religiously inclined, or they are not. I heard they had found a gene for it too. My parents were atheists but I loved the occasional hymns we did at school in the 70's, and at 7 I was asking them to take me to Sunday school (they wouldn't) and at 12 I joined a church by myself. I still went on to make different choices as an adult but have retained a sense of finding religion appealing. Other kids at school were entirely unaffected by singing the hymns.

I think YABU as it's a religious school and you are making your DC different. Later in life they are bound to go to weddings, christenings or funerals and it will help them if it doesn't then feel like an alien environment.

Well in nearly 450 replies I don't think the OP's had the reassurance he wanted.

Wonder if he'll take the other viewpoints on board...