Was we unreasonable to withdraw our child from a school church service?

[Dad0f1]

Hello everyone new member here just looking for some advice/reassurance that I/we've made the right decision regarding withdrawing our child from a church service at school.

So our DS who is our first child started Reception this September at our local CofE primary school and although neither myself or my OH are church goers we felt that this was the best school for him as the other practical nearby choices were a RC school or a two form entry state school which our DS would not have coped with.

And to be fair our DS has settled in nicely making lots of new friends and seems to be enjoying it however, the other week we was informed that the children would be attending a 'School Communion Service' in the nearby church that the school is attached to and not having a clue what this was I enquired with the Head of RE what the service entailed, how involved DS would be in the service and what was expected of him during the service.

As I suspected the service was in their words 'a simplified child friendly version of the Holy Communion Service' which would include bread and wine for those who were confirmed (as apparantly the children are offered the option to be confirmed if they wish in Y6) but the Reverend overseeing ther service likes to get the children involved so will offer all the children confirmed or not a wafer if they want one.
Also 'prompts' would flash up on a big screen at various points during the service to let the children know when to say 'Amen' etc.

Now to the reason why I/we chose to withdraw my DS from this service. Although the Head of RE made a point to explain that worship is voluntary at the school and that the children are free to take part in worship as much or as little as they wish. I very much doubt that children aged 4 or 5 can grasp the concept of this especially as they are at an age where they want to please the adults around them.
This is also made difficult for them not to be involved if they wish when they have 'prompts' flashing up on a big screen to help/nudge them into reciting a paticular phrase and when everyone around them is then repeating it parrot fashion.

Whilst we do want our DS to learn about Christianity we also want him to make up his own mind about whether to accept it or reject it in later life.
So AI/WBU to withdraw him from school church services that are being conducted like this or should I let him experience them bearing in mind his young age?

YABU - complete over reaction.

I think the OP is absolutely right to withdraw her son from this particular service. It might be something he would learn about in his studies of religions as he gets older, but exposing him to a communion service with its incomprehensible symbolism is not something appropriate.

To the poster who said that the OP chose this school - she had two choices: one school that she did not deem suitable for her son and one church school. She should not have been placed in that situation. ALL schools should be non-aligned and parents should have the choice of fostering their own religion within their family and the state should not be foisting it on those who do not agree with it.

I have children who have been to church schools at secondary stage - because there was no other option in our are - but they were of an age to discuss and understand that religion is a matter of choice. Primary school children should not be exposed to this.

Religious families can teach their own children whatever they choose out of schools hours.

It is right that primary children should be taught ABOUT religion, but not have one particular religion presented as fact.

Yes YABU - it's hard enough as a Christian to get kids into good Christian schools, because of postcode parents using them for convenience/reputation and then refusing the parts of this education they don't like. I went to RC school and it was made very clear during admissions that it meant fully engaging with the church community and worship commitments. There's a reason these schools are perceived as safe and of a good standard - because the families are expected to commit fully to church activities & school life.

YABVU

You chose the school.

Unbelievable. Seriously, change schools. Clearly not for you.

Oh, you are going to be THAT parent then! So I assume he wont be allowed to take part in the Nativity since thats a Christian celebration. or what about general school assemblies, going to pull him out of that as well?

This is a C of E school. If you had researched it more fully you would have realised that this is part and parcel of being at the school. You are making him stand out from his peers and as time goes on this could affect him adversely.

are you going to pull him out of other things you dont agree with like sex education in a christian context? Children make up their own minds and our job is to give them the fullest possible range of life experiences that we can. all of mine went to a C of E school. they knew who the kid was who was always pulled out of the church services and who missed the christmas nativity and the easter passion play. and they felt sorry for her because whilst they were doing all the rehearsing and dressing up she sat in the corner reading or colouring.

You either let your child play the full part in the life of the school or you change school.

Like several pp's have already said, there's a difference between teaching what different religions believe and teaching religion as fact.

The first I am all about, the latter I would withdraw my young DC from every single time.

Why do you keep saying this? Over and over again.
In the case of the OP, they also had a state school in the local area which was not affiliated with a church. They chose the CofE instead of the state school. So in this case your point is irrelevant. You seem to be missing the point that there was an alternative available for this OP.

That said, in many cases, the CofE school is in the only option - such as a lot of the rural villages in Northumberland for example. And in those cases, your point does stand, "What are you supposed to do?" Well, you send your child to the local school and see how it pans out. You don't have a choice.

But this OP did have a choice. They chose the CofE school and are now complaining about the school attending church services and wanting to withdraw the child. They obviously feel strongly about religion. So they should have sent the child to the other school because they had the choice.

You sent him to a C of E school and expect him not to practice Christianity?
Really? You cannot send your child to a religious school and then get annoyed they practice it. It you felt that strongly you should have sent him to one of the other 2 schools. Surely if you're that bothered this isn't the "best school for him" at all? He's going to miss out on lots of fun things they do around Christmas and Easter if you keep this up. You're alienating him, and it's your decision that put him in the position in the first place.
You are so unreasonable.

I think you have completely over reacted. One visit to a church isn’t going to set the religious tone for the rest of his life and he will have missed out on a fun and bonding day out with his classmates. It’s your job as a parent to help him put his experiences in context at this age. We are not religious, but our DC have done similar trips and they are still atheist as ever.

By reception age surely you have discussed religion with him and taught him that different people think different things. Has he never pointed out a church or mosque when you’ve been out and about and asked what it was?

YANBU.

I would have withdrawn my child from this too, and I am RC.

If an optional activity is something you can't get on board with, you are perfectly justified in keeping your child from participating.

I know it's a CoE school, and there are posters here who say 'in for a penny, in for a pound' but people choose schools for a variety of reasons, maybe crossing fingers that there won't be too many awkward moments when something is presented to your child that is not in accord with your own beliefs.

Not everyone has a real choice as to where they send their child. It sounds as if you made a conscientious decision based on what was best for your child overall.

You are the first and most important teachers of your own child. Your hesitation over this is completely justified imo. You do not hold Christian beliefs and you are concerned that your child would be in a position where home and school are in conflict. Hopefully the school can understand the position parents are in when it comes to school choice, and respect your role in your child's life and learning.

@LardyCakeAgain "There's a reason these schools are perceived as safe and of a good standard - because the families are expected to commit fully to church activities & school life."

That's not actually true. Church schools are only "better" if they are oversubscribed and so "selective" admissions criteria are applied. Church schools who are not overscribed so do not apply the admissions criteria are no better or worse than the catchment suggests.

You chose a faith school, did you not anticipate that there would be elements of it incorporated into the education? Will dc be taking part in a nativity, carol service etc? Do they have assemblies and re lessons? I fear you may not have thought this through longer term. Are they able to supervise him if you opt out?

Learning about different religions is important. Participating in religious rituals is not necessary. Teachers or other authority figures endorsing a particular religion as true is also not appropriate. Even if it’s just kept to a vague, generic, christian-ish deity, that is still an endorsement of a belief.

Many people think that a belief in religion is benign. Some of us believe that it is actively harmful because it places the locus of morality outside a person.

I was the child of "those parents". Mum and dad did not allow attendance at RE, or any external worship.

Great way to build resilience (sarcasm) - getting them picked on for being different.

If you enrol your child into a CofE or Catholic school, their participation in those events is normal and the way of life at the school. Can't take advantage of the perceived better education/school system there and then throw the other parts back at them.

There are always options of state schools/academies/private schools that don't have a religious part. At this stage of life can just change the school to one of those rather than cause problems at the CofE School.

Anything to do with religion/church service etc in primary school is actually usually very fun, and light, teaching about caring for others and just being a good person. They would be learning happy friendly songs, doing art etc. It is hardly indoctrinating them.. plus how left out would your child feel being the only one sitting elsewhere probably with the receptionist while their classmates are all in the church service. It would just draw the other kids attention to them unnecessarily.

If really against it, this probably just isn't the school for your family. It is just as important a factor to consider as distance/ofsted etc.

How can you be shocked that a church school may include checks notes religious worship?

It makes no difference to your life at all, I went to an RC primary and secondary, I’m not religious.
Why single him out, he could’ve had a fun morning/afternoon out of school with his friends.

No sorry you choose that school over a non church school, 2 form entry. There is nothing wrong with a 2 form entry anyway, we have 4 here.

You sound very precious and entitled to be honest. I am not religious but happy for kids to take part in school life. Even at non c of E schools that are not connected to any religion, they go to the church at Christmas! It is part of UK traditional culture, I don't believe or go myself but the kids did at primary school. Neither of them are remotely interested now (late teens) and in fact have shunned that church over its views on gay rights (despite not being gay themselves). Stop stressing and let the little lad join in. He is just missing out of a trip and that becomes a much bigger issue and miles more interesting!

if it reassures you both my children went to church schools - neither 'became believers' - they do know many ''jolly Christian songs.. '' though!

I do think if you exclude someone from something it becomes more enticing..

Does that include Santa then?

I went to a c of e primary. None of my friends families or mine were religious but it's the only viable school. It benefits us immensely:
I an understanding of thaith that are the backbone of uk.law
I have an understanding of the bible so get most references in art and literature
I have a moral compass that came from my parents but was supported by the direction of the school
I know the well known hymns and am not afraid to sing at weddings funerals
I made my own mind up about religion and have a faith in God and the trinity based on c of e teachings. But have no time for organised religion given the complete £#@%---&%£# who think they are called by God to lead in churches especially most I have met in the c of e
But having a faith to turn to, to not be embarrassed to go into a church in times of need is, in my view, important

Going to a church, attending a church prayer service, or participating in Sunday school are not necessarily a part of learning about Christianity. Would children need to gonregularly to a Temple or a Mosque, recite the Torah, or face Mecca and pray five times a day and fast during Ramadan in order to learn about Judaism or Islam?

As an RC, I would find it very objectionable for a child of mine to be given a 'wafer' during a service in a church we don't attend, and whose beliefs around Holy Communion we do not share.

Not everyone takes Communion lightly ('it's just Holy communion'), whether because they are atheist or members of a denomination that does take it seriously.

I think the OP is just virtue signalling here - look how very other and how out there I am sticking my two fingers up at religion, while cherrypicking the bits he wants from a non-secular education.

If you mean two classes per year, then you need to get a grip. My kids had 5 per year.

DD has ended up at a faith school (not my first choice).

They have been amazing at meeting her needs. She takes part in the whole school religious aspects, and comes home and we talk about them. It has been very enriching, she has learnt to appreciate different points of view and understand different traditions.

There have been times when I have questioned whether school has had too much influence, but the fact we discuss it openly - including the discrepancies and hypocracies - have resulted in her learning to challenge what she is told. By me as well as by school! And that is very positive as well, she can face the idea that good and caring people can be wrong, that she has permission to make up her own mind. If she comes to a different conclusion to me that is OK.

I suspect that after a period of rejecting my opinion (because what do parents know?) she is beginning to agree with my point of view. Either way, she is free to decide for herself.

I’m an atheist and went to many church services as a child, makes no odds, just a bit of a jolly. They don’t need to say Amen if they don’t want to, think I stopped as soon as I realised what it meant, around 8 or 9.

YABU

You can't really put your child into a religious school to gripe when that religion is practised. It is the sort of experience that can inform the very decision you say you want your child to make.

The service will be fun for the kids. It will be a shared experience with their classmates and only the vicar will emerge scarred. In any case, exactly how much attention do you think children pay when they can be gossiping and playing etc?