To think it’s crazy you can parent whatever way you want?!

[ItsGivingJudgey]

This OP will sound judgey has hell hence my username. I’ve NC but long time user.

I know it’s a free country (in the UK at least). I also really support human rights, however I still find it mad that you can have a child and raise them whatever way you want no matter how batshit so long as it doesn’t meet the very high legal requirements for removal.

Examples:

ONE:

My SIL does F all with her child and he’s now 2.5 years old. He literally does not leave the house other than for absolute essentials such as medical appointments. He doesn’t go to nursery despite it being free (she doesn’t work). He’s never been swimming, to feed the ducks, to the beach or the local park. He’s never met other children outside of his cousins. He’s only ever been to soft play twice when I have physically picked them up to take them with me and my dc.
He only ever leaves the house when my in-laws take him food shopping with them just to get him out. He can literally go 1-2 weeks without being outside his front door.
SIL on the other hand goes on holidays, days out with her boyfriend, cocktails with friends etc. She just has the in-laws babysit when she does. Her reasoning? ‘It’s a faff’ ‘the weather is bad’ or she ‘can’t be arsed today’. She was very lazy before becoming a parent but her laziness now has extended to her child who literally lives his entire life within the confines of the house. It’s nothing to do with mental health on her part, it’s pure laziness. She’ll only take him out if a member of the family with a car physically goes and picks them up and drops them back off home. The nursery is less than a 5 minute walk from her house. She was badgered by the health visitor to enroll him so she did it, took him for a week and then never bothered again as it was ‘too much faffing about for just a few hours’.

He lives off microwave meals and tinned food. Wakes up and spends the entire day in front of the tv or with his tablet. When my in-laws went away last year he didn’t leave the house for 3 weeks!!

It doesn’t meet the legal requirements or thresholds for social services. He is fed and clothed and has lots of toys. But it’s crazy that he is able to spend his entire life within the confines of a house and that’s that.

TWO:

My cousin. Very well educated, affluent and has always been a bit eccentric as is her DH. However over the years they have joined a kind of weird religion/cult like group and are massive conspiracy theorists. They homeschool their kids (fine), but have indoctrinated them with mad beliefs. The kids including the baby are vegan. Their unvaccinated. They can only bath in this specially filtered water. The kids are feral and not allowed to watch tv, listen to any type of mainstream music only this specifically selected whale like music. They avoid any type of radiation and limit sources of power so in the evenings the house is lit by candlelight and an open fire. The kids wear this robe like clothing that seems impractical. The kids no nothing outside of their parents beliefs. They have no awareness of the outside world. They only socialise with the other people in this conspiracy group that also homeschool.

My cousin and her husband are well meaning and obviously it’s their right to believe what they wish. But their kids won’t know how to use the internet, any real world references, learn about other religions or cultures. Surely this will do long term harm in some way?

The children couldn’t tell you what spaghetti bolognaise is or what a smartphone/tablet is or that there was ever a world war or even how what a kettle
is for. But they can tell you about crystal healing powers. What if when they get to 18 they want to live a ‘mainstream’ life and join society? How will they manage? Get a job? Make friends with peers?

It’s not that I believe there’s only one right way to parent or anything because I don’t. However I find it mad that you can have a baby and so long as you meet very basic standards, you can literally do as you want with actual human beings.

Please tell me if I’m being unreasonable to think it’s not right and if I am being unreasonable why so? I feel so sorry for these children.

Please visit and take out the first child as much as you can. You'll be making such a positive difference

Oh my GOD, TAKE HIM! Take him on a train, to the beach, to the farm. DO SOMETHING. She is shit, she isn't going to change, social services are not going to swing in and save him. Stop allowing this. Change it. You have the power to make a huge difference to this kid. Why aren't you doing it???

Homeschooling is much less work. They don't have to be out of nappies, you don't need to get them up and dressed in the morning, no school run, no packed lunches (or battles about why they won't eat the school free lunch because they aren't used to actual meals), no dealing with teachers, no uniforms to wash, no remembering forms/money for things.
Stick the telly on and chuck snacks at them every few hours.
At least, this is how several of my cousins approach homeschooling.

Why though. Why is it so hard to believe that the parent/s is the best person to provide an education to their own children? Why would you need a ‘very very good reason’? My reason for doing it is that I was totally disillusioned with the UK education system (I’m a teacher).

I home educate my dc and quite frankly it’s easy! I know them very well and with the way the world is today we have all the information we could ever need right at our fingertips. Do you know how much free (or paid) online learning there is?! There are so many classes and groups for my children locally too and thankfully our local government/authority are very supportive of what we do. They have told me the home educated children they see are creative, engaged, love learning, sociable and driven.
No one I know is doing anything other than being committed to their children’s education/development/well being even if the aren’t ‘Registered’ or even if what they do isn’t seen as ‘mainstream’.

Well, the ones who could do something about it are your family. But obviously it's far better to spend your time whinging and gossiping on Mumsnet and moaning about social services.

Good Lord

There is zero wrong with being judgmental of these scenarios. We have the ability to judge for a reason - we as society have SOME standards at least.

The way people go on about home ed on here is ridiculous. I considered home ed but ultimately decided against it because I felt I couldn't provide enough social opportunities due to my own poor mental health and antisocial tendencies. I know a few families who home ed and they all do so much with their kids. People on MN act as being neglected is the norm whereas I'd say it's very much the opposite. All of the parents I know who chose this lifestyle put a lot of consideration and effort into the choice and are very proactive in educating their children in various ways.

Come on though - you are a teacher.

You have a good understanding of pedagogy, the basic building blocks of learning, what your children will need to know to ultimately take exams that they will need to get the qualifications that will open up career paths for them that will be closed off completely if they fail to attain those qualifications.

You know how to identify and evaluate educational resources.

You are well-educated yourself to degree level.

Basically what your children get is access to what they would get in school but on a really personalised, 121/small group level.

Of COURSE that is going to be better for them, especially if enriched with contact with other home-ed children (you will know about, understand and know how to engage productively with those communities) and other life experiences (assuming you have a similarly professionally-employed spouse, you have the resources to enable this).

You are not 'the average parent' in this respect. The vast majority of parents would not be able to deliver at the level you can. Surely you see that.

It is very different someone qualified like you making an informed decision to home-ed their child so as to give them the best possible experience, and someone like the OP's cousin who is home-ed-ing apparently to avoid their children's ideological purity being compromised.

Example 1 is still emotional neglect. Example 2 reminds me of the Allan family that live off the grid.

All of parents have to home educate as school doesn't suit their kids. School has become more once size fits all recently. A lot of kids do really well learning at home.

Both these examples are extreme! Child 1 bothers me the most.

Some democratic countries do not allow homeschooling and some democratic countries do not allow unvaccinated children into schools.
Scenario 1 is pretty much what happened to many toddlers during the pandemic and there is documented developmental delay. There is also the risk of vitamin D deficiency, I hope the 2.5 year old is at least given supplements.

Regarding Scenario 2, it is a sort of living in the past lifestyle so I am not sure how harmful that really is if there is love etc. There certainly will be a disconnect with the rest of society though assuming a Western country. However, I don’t think one can be too judgemental as lots of DCs around the world will be growing up in different ways with different beliefs.

Each to his own OP

"I honestly believe if it wasn’t for grandparents and a few other family members, he would go months without stepping foot outside that house. The only time he would leave would be if she literally had no other choice."

What you've described right there is the way society deals with situations like this that are bad for a child but not as bad as them being taken away would be. It takes a village to raise a child, as they say. Some kids don't need the 'village' to do much; some will need it to do an awful lot as their parents can't or won't. But it can't all be done via officialdom and rules and threats, for all the reasons people have given above.

I have to ask tho op, what are your family doing about Sil? Have her parents actually sat her down and told her how harmful her behaviour is? Has her brother or you? Has anyone suggested she goes to the GP for depression? Even if he's doesn't have it, the idea that you can't imagine why else she'd behave like this, would it make it sink in?

I'd like to see a system where parents and those who are expecting or trying to concieve have to attend classes and reach a certain standard, otherwise the kids are taken away/terminated and the parents sterilised

Jesus wept. And even if you had this, lots of people would just meet the standard required and parent as they choose regardless.

And you want state ordered abortion? really?

They both sound absolutely shite to be honest, example one borderline neglectful. Actually no, imo it is neglectful

So why don’t you talk to SIL about it then, actually confront her about what she’s doing (or not doing). Doesn’t have to be hostile but when she’s declines to do something with him because it’s a faff, say “come one, that’s not good enough, he needs to go out”. Sit her down and explain things to her like you have here.

Also, you seem set on the fact that it doesn’t meet threshold for children’s services involvement. Have you actually referred? If you word your referral like you have here and explain the effect it is having on him, it would not surprise me if they do open some sort of contact with mum.

Do you really want to live in a society where forced abortion and forced sterilisation is a thing?

What happens with existing kids who's parents fail? National Children's Homes housing thousands or kids under a certain age simply disposed of with a quite injection?

It's not one or two individual decisions alone that are worrying but everything together that forms a picture.

In the first example the child's need for fresh air and exercise doesn't sound like it's being met? Or interaction

In the second instance I'm curious about how they are the children's trajectory when they are teens. Will they be supported to go into further education? If so they'll very quickly catch up with their peers and the parents could be in for a big rebellion.

I tend to be quite sceptical of people who claim to want China style forced abortions. They're either bullshitters or so fringe as to be unimportant and uninteresting. The number of people who haven't the foggiest about foster care but don't let that stop them opening about it is probably more concerning.

To the home educators who’ve posted.

I have 0 issues with home education. I don’t have any issues with people living alternative lifestyle or whatever.

I’m talking about how it’s crazy you can literally take a tiny baby and do pretty much anything you want with them short of abuse. So you can literally take them off the radar, decline health visitors or any outside input and have them kept in a house 24/7 and tell them the sky is purple and the oceans are yellow and the earth is flat. You can say Hitler is a God and do as you like, providing you don’t cross the lines into abuse and even then it’s a high threshold.

This is what shocks me.

"I don’t have any issues with people living alternative lifestyle or whatever."

But you clearly do.

I live in England. But I think it's less about where I live and more about the people, I'm from quite a troubled and chaotic background with a huge extended family filled with people with a lot of issues (that can largely be blamed on poverty, mental health issues and drugs).

I also have a friend who HS and does it how you describe. Is part of a HS community, where they meet up and share tutors and activities and actually educate the kids. Obviously if you're part of that kind of community, you'd only meet others who do it like that. The friend and the people she HS with all seem quite middle class, so perhaps it is partly a class thing?
I suppose what my relatives are/were doing is more 'unschooling' as they aren't doing the educating part. But they also don't have the (material or intellectual) resources to do what you do.