To think it’s crazy you can parent whatever way you want?!

[ItsGivingJudgey]

This OP will sound judgey has hell hence my username. I’ve NC but long time user.

I know it’s a free country (in the UK at least). I also really support human rights, however I still find it mad that you can have a child and raise them whatever way you want no matter how batshit so long as it doesn’t meet the very high legal requirements for removal.

Examples:

ONE:

My SIL does F all with her child and he’s now 2.5 years old. He literally does not leave the house other than for absolute essentials such as medical appointments. He doesn’t go to nursery despite it being free (she doesn’t work). He’s never been swimming, to feed the ducks, to the beach or the local park. He’s never met other children outside of his cousins. He’s only ever been to soft play twice when I have physically picked them up to take them with me and my dc.
He only ever leaves the house when my in-laws take him food shopping with them just to get him out. He can literally go 1-2 weeks without being outside his front door.
SIL on the other hand goes on holidays, days out with her boyfriend, cocktails with friends etc. She just has the in-laws babysit when she does. Her reasoning? ‘It’s a faff’ ‘the weather is bad’ or she ‘can’t be arsed today’. She was very lazy before becoming a parent but her laziness now has extended to her child who literally lives his entire life within the confines of the house. It’s nothing to do with mental health on her part, it’s pure laziness. She’ll only take him out if a member of the family with a car physically goes and picks them up and drops them back off home. The nursery is less than a 5 minute walk from her house. She was badgered by the health visitor to enroll him so she did it, took him for a week and then never bothered again as it was ‘too much faffing about for just a few hours’.

He lives off microwave meals and tinned food. Wakes up and spends the entire day in front of the tv or with his tablet. When my in-laws went away last year he didn’t leave the house for 3 weeks!!

It doesn’t meet the legal requirements or thresholds for social services. He is fed and clothed and has lots of toys. But it’s crazy that he is able to spend his entire life within the confines of a house and that’s that.

TWO:

My cousin. Very well educated, affluent and has always been a bit eccentric as is her DH. However over the years they have joined a kind of weird religion/cult like group and are massive conspiracy theorists. They homeschool their kids (fine), but have indoctrinated them with mad beliefs. The kids including the baby are vegan. Their unvaccinated. They can only bath in this specially filtered water. The kids are feral and not allowed to watch tv, listen to any type of mainstream music only this specifically selected whale like music. They avoid any type of radiation and limit sources of power so in the evenings the house is lit by candlelight and an open fire. The kids wear this robe like clothing that seems impractical. The kids no nothing outside of their parents beliefs. They have no awareness of the outside world. They only socialise with the other people in this conspiracy group that also homeschool.

My cousin and her husband are well meaning and obviously it’s their right to believe what they wish. But their kids won’t know how to use the internet, any real world references, learn about other religions or cultures. Surely this will do long term harm in some way?

The children couldn’t tell you what spaghetti bolognaise is or what a smartphone/tablet is or that there was ever a world war or even how what a kettle
is for. But they can tell you about crystal healing powers. What if when they get to 18 they want to live a ‘mainstream’ life and join society? How will they manage? Get a job? Make friends with peers?

It’s not that I believe there’s only one right way to parent or anything because I don’t. However I find it mad that you can have a baby and so long as you meet very basic standards, you can literally do as you want with actual human beings.

Please tell me if I’m being unreasonable to think it’s not right and if I am being unreasonable why so? I feel so sorry for these children.

It is pretty interesting to view this discussion in the context of recent pandemic response policy.

One point that's not come up yet, I don't think, is that for varying reasons a lot of parents are angry about the way the state has treated the welfare of their children since covid kicked in, and so there's a lot of mistrust. This isn't limited to one particular view on lockdown either. There are people who feel their children have been thrown under the bus because of schools closing, not closing soon enough, air quality in classrooms, isolation bubble rules, kids being allowed in when covid positive now... those arguments exist right across the spectrum. It's not a pro or anti lockdown thing, it applies to both.

So the idea of the state being either practically or morally qualified to set out and enforce much more intrusive standards on things like fresh air, tablet time and socialisation is, well, not exactly universally accepted. Not when so many people feel their DCs welfare has been treated as collateral.

I dobt really believe in these 'examples' you have painted.

Yeah and how much money and taxes would be spent implementing this only for the abusers to still slip under the radar because they know how to put on an act?

Totally agree with you OP. DBIL and DSIL adopted and they had to go through months of intensive scrutiny, whereas any old shit parent can pop a baby out and treat it however they want. Seems very unfair.

Take it up with God/Mother Nature or whomever your belief system holds responsible for biology.

We aren't born knowing how to parent, we learn how to parent. And thats the point of parenting classes - to give children the info they don't get from their role models.

What should parenting classes teach and at what age?

If you teach them to children, will there be a counselling service for those children who are not being raised according to these classes? There may be a whole loads of pennies dropping and there needs to be an adequate plan for supporting these children.

Completely agree with everything you've said.

I honestly don’t understand why somebody is being criticised for not stepping up and supporting the child when his own mother isn’t? And is beyond reproach? Maybe op has mental health or physical health issues or is just flat out busy like most of us and doesn’t have the time to take on somebody else’s child. Why are our expectations of parents on here so low yet our expectations of their wider family members so high.

@Naptrappedmummy I can't speak for anyone else, but I would say the op has earned ire because she's equated perfectly fine parenting choices like homeschooling, veganism and non electronic toys with neglect. She's basically saying that the only way to parent is her way and that anything outside her narrow experience is neglect. She doesn't say what the so called conspiracy theories are and tbh, I'd have less worry about someone who thinks 9 11 was planned or we didn't go to the moon than some of the misogynistic Scientology like crap. The fact op doesn't provide examples of the conspiracies and lumps them in with the above perfectly acceptable choices tells me she's controlling and judgemental. That coupled with her assertion that she's absolutely sure there are no nd or mental health issues makes me seriously question her judgement.

It's quite simple former. If I think someone needs help I give it. If I think neglect I report it. Other than that mind my own business. Op just wanted a pile on.

Thing is, if the SIL in the first example was referred to early help or social services the first thing that would happen is that they would be asking what her family was doing to help and trying to get them to help more. In my experience that is always the first option before social services provide their own support. Same with elderly people asking for carers or children being removed from their birth parents. They always ask relatives to step in first because it's cheaper and less paperwork. I completely get that the OP and grandparents can't do any more but that's what social services will be asking/persuading them to do, probably with a tonne of pressure to step up thrown in for good measure.

@WhenSheWasBadshewasawesome i disagree. I think if this was a reverse and poster was complaining about being judged for keeping her kid cooped up for weeks on end, everyone would tell her she was neglectful and that it’s no life for a small child. Because it’s not that way round and op is instead doing the judging, the responses are totally different. Because ‘judging’ itself transcends whatever it is they’re judging. And people feel that they have to argue against her opinion because they simply don’t like how she is making it. Thats my view anyway

You miss my point, I agree that specific example is neglectful. But it's the way that the op has conflated two completely different circumstances that makes it judgemental.

Her argument is essentially, people who neglect their children by never taking them out, are vegan, homeschool, don't like technology are all neglectful.

She's seen something she should be concerned about that would constitute neglect, which is why I pointed out that it was in fact wrong of the government to gaslight us into collectively neglecting our children, and then applied the same logic to every tiny difference in parenting choices.

Can you quote what she has said to make you believe she thinks all home educating parents are negligent and that anything outside of her own narrow perspective is abuse? I re read all her posts and saw nothing?

"They homeschool their kids (fine), but have indoctrinated them with mad beliefs.*

What are mad beliefs? Op doesn't say but then goes on to describe veganism as a mad belief. A very acceptable way of living approved by the NHS and rather mainstream these days considering the state meat makes of the planet.

They can only bath in this specially filtered water.
Plastic waste yes, but otherwise hurts no one. Pointless judging.

The kids are feral and not allowed to watch tv,
What does feral mean in this context? So far it sounds like they might go outdoors and climb trees, use tools as they are not using television. Shocking.

listen to any type of mainstream music only this specifically selected whale like music.
So different music then. Bet the op doesn't let her child listen to every genre of music. Again. Who is it harming if kids don't hear pop music, which is mostly disgustingly misogynistic anyway at this point?

They avoid any type of radiation and limit sources of power so in the evenings the house is lit by candlelight and an open fire.
Sounds like they are harming no one. Cosy.

The kids wear this robe like clothing that seems impractical.
Again, how is a robe a worse choice than putting a baby girl in a bow and dress. Pretty mainstream but impractical. And most girls under ten have those awful impractical dolly shows then get clunky heels. Op probably fine with that. Parent choices. Why is one terrible and one not worth commenting on?

Also, I'm not sure I believe that bit. She's jumped the shark there .

The kids no nothing outside of their parents beliefs. They have no awareness of the outside world. They only socialise with the other people in this conspiracy group that also homeschool.

People can see the judgement here because this is largely how homeschool works. Only exposed to people in your social circle. It's also how schools work, which is why you look round schools and find out their ethos before you send your children there. But one is seen as conspiracy and one just normal. If you go to Catholic school same result for example.

But their kids won’t know how to use the internet, any real world references, learn about other religions or cultures. Surely this will do long term harm in some way?

They might use it to learn about the Amish or Mormons.
But probably they'd just access porn.

*The children couldn’t tell you what spaghetti bolognaise is or what a smartphone/tablet is or that there was ever a world war or even how what a kettle
is for. *

Implied judgement. People must eat my foods and use technology I deem important. My kids don't have spaghetti Bolognese very often as it's rank. I'm sure we eat lots of things op has never heard of. Call social services.

In terms of wars I doubt any children below ks2 know about a world war. I myself don't like the glorification of war and think the national curriculum changes to put it in older year groups is a good one. Maybe they are following that logic. Maybe they are just nuts. Who knows. Op is unreliable source.

As for the kettle. I assume she means an electric one..plenty of us grew up using a stove kettle and then got our electric kettles just fine when we went to university. Or is she saying they use a cauldron? Either way I'm sure they have the means to boil water

But they can tell you about crystal healing powers. What if when they get to 18 they want to live a ‘mainstream’ life and join society? How will they manage? Get a job? Make friends with peers?

They'll go 'oh that's interesting tell me more.' Yes I always wanted to work part time in a slaughter house and the other part heating spaghetti Bolognese in my office job.

It's not that I believe there’s only one right way to parent or anything because I don’t.

If you can't detect the judgement that contradicts this statement I can't help you. It's right on there you just need critical thinking skills.

I actually don’t detect judgement outside what mainstream parents would think. I don’t think she’s judging these things individually but they’re all part of a wider picture where the children have every aspect of life drilled into them as something dangerous or nefarious. If all they were doing was using distilled water for baths I doubt she would have bothered to write about them. She isn’t extremely judgemental to think depriving a child of learning virtually anything about the society they live in is disadvantageous. I won’t paste verbatim because i would have to open a new window and I’m not that fussed about making my point! But I think she acknowledges the home schoolers aren’t abusive as such just unconventional to the point they’re going to leave their children with an unhealthy fear of the world around them. I saw a thread the other day where a poster complained about her mother in law cleaning the baby high chair with mr muscle and she was told to relax because her ocd would give the baby a complex. So it all ties in with the fact posters have responded not according to the subject matter but the fact it’s op judging someone else and regardless of the facts she must therefore be put in her place

Realistically, in scenario 1 things will chance drastically once the child starts school.

I agree totally that children and their parents were adversely affected as I said and per my post also very critical of how this was (mis) managed by our gov, so very much share your anger.

I don’t see it as being “forced to neglect our children” but being in a pandemic situation with a shambolic gov - lazy and uncaring as evidenced by their shenanigans some of which now exposed through media and enquiry. They are the neglectful ones, but have a poor track record in non pandemic times too when it comes to supporting children, so what did we expect.

There are green spaces in our cities and unless the lifts are out of order it is perfectly possible to get outside. I have lived in a high rise in the city with no car. OP’s SIL is not in any case living in a high rise flat.

I don’t want to comment on Spain or Malaysia, partly because I don’t have a lived experience of bringing up DC or being in pandemic times in those countries and partly because it is even more removed from the situation described by OP of her SIL I mentioned “looking at leaves” etc because as I said it was something mentioned by PP and was still possible to go outside to do with DC in UK pandemic times.

I don't think it especially matters where one personally sits on the issue of lockdown and restrictions. What's important is that lots of parents, of diverse views on the issue, feel the state has shown it can't be trusted with child welfare over the last 4 years. Realistically that's going to have a knock on effect.

Yes and I hope the knock on effect will include knocking this government out of number 10!

That is assuming that the child is going to be registered to join a school and that the parent(s) can be bothered to take them there. Neither is guaranteed.

It’s highly likely they will though.

Sorry for such a delayed response to this thread.

A lovely mumsnetter DMd me about my SIL which promoted me to write this response incase anyone else is wondering more about their situation and our family and why I think like I do.

So although very outing, the reason I know Social services won’t help is because I am a social worker. Albeit in adult services. However I work closely with children’s and my close friends from uni are children’s social workers. I have discussed this situation at length informally with my friends and with colleagues. There is nothing that can be enforced. She does NOT meet threshold. Unless you work in child’s protection you’re unlikely to be aware just how high the threshold has to be for enforced intervention through the courts.

I am fully aware of early help and all the local agencies. She lives on the same estate as the children’s centre which she’s never stepped foot in. She does not give consent for any input. In her mind she is a SAHM and her little boy is with his mum 24/7 so she doesn’t need childcare/nursery, she doesn’t see the benefits. She has the belief that kids need their mums in early years and he has that. She believes his life is fine. He is a very easy and compliant toddler, doesn’t tantrum and is smiley. Just sits quietly on his tablet. So she thinks it’s all fine.

Why don’t we do more? We do as much as we can. I work in a stressful job as a social worker, DP works all hours and we have 2 under 2 ourselves. On my days off I always offer to meet her at various groups/places that are 1 bus ride away from her. She says she ‘can’t be arsed’ with all the ‘faffing about’. I can no longer physically pick them up in my car so meeting them there is as good as it’s going to get.

My in-laws take him out as much as they possibly can despite it being impractical. So my FIL will work a 12 hour shift and if he finishes early, he will take 2 buses across the city to pick up nephew. Then he’ll take a bus to the shops and do a full weekly food shop with nephew as too late for groups etc, and then take a bus back to SIL and then take 2 buses back to his own home with his food shop. This completely goes out of his way and he’d have spent the entire day on buses. He’ll do this just to ensure nephew gets out of the house!! If he doesn’t then he’d have to wait until his next free day which could be weeks away and nephew would be stuck inside until then. On PIL days off they go and get him, but due to work and other commitments it’s every 7-10 days. They will go every week in the evenings after work to check in and SIL will go out then when they babysit (date nights, socialising etc) but obviously it’s far too late for nephew to go out then and he’s in bed.

So that’s where we’re at. There is no enforceable law about him going out. He is clean, fed, dressed. His life is the tablet/tv and the house. SIL genuinely believes this is fine. This is why I believe it’s batshit that you can parent pretty much anyway you want bar abuse (and even that threshold is high).

Thanks for the update OP. It sounds really hard. I work in education and I agree the bar is pretty low for parenting standards. In your SIL’s case it does sound like she is lazy and not doing the best she can, by a long stretch.

But more generally, I think we need to understand that there are some parents who are trying to be good parents, but face huge barriers. Childhood poverty in the UK is pretty shocking. Anyone who hasn’t watched the current Shelter ‘AD’ should. It’s heartbreaking.

I would also argue that there’s plenty of children born into wealthy families who suffer pretty shit parenting. Sure, they might have an easier time in some ways with material things, but the parenting can be awful, or just lacking.

I’d also say that ALL of us can have times in our parenting when we’re pretty rubbish parents. I’m going to bed tonight feeling hugely guilty over a row I had with one of my kids tonight even thought we’ve sort of patched it up. When my toddler was screaming on the way back from the park today and it all felt relentless and intense, I felt like a terrible mum.

Most parents are just doing their best. Some aren’t. And that’s sad. But so much of it is subjective too.

On another note. I have NOTHING against home education. I really do not. I know 2 perfectly lovely families whom home educate and their children are so well loved and looked after.

My cousin, although she loves her children, is completely misguided and I believe psychologically damaging her children (unintentionally). Her kids are petrified of electricity ffs. They have borderline cult like beliefs. If you’re teaching someone incorrect information, is that an education?

If their children ever wish to be a part of society they will be not only be ill equipped but likely traumatised to learn so much that was kept from them or lied about.

They won’t know how to navigate simple things we take for granted. It’s fine for cousin and her husband to live this way as they have a choice. They could give it all up tomorrow and live a normal life if they want. They have those skills. Their kids do not have those skills or that knowledge. They won’t be able to just get a job and a house and live normally at 18 if they want to. They don’t even know how to use a kettle. I don’t know what they’d do and how they’d go about it if they wanted to leave this way of life. They’ve essentially trapped and disabled their own children into this system with no alternatives shown or offered to them. I believe it’s damaging but again, it’s their right.

I personally find it crazy anyone can just have a tiny baby and then spend 18 years doing what they hell they like with this actual person bar the legal definitions of abuse. That’s what this thread is about.