To think it’s crazy you can parent whatever way you want?!

[ItsGivingJudgey]

This OP will sound judgey has hell hence my username. I’ve NC but long time user.

I know it’s a free country (in the UK at least). I also really support human rights, however I still find it mad that you can have a child and raise them whatever way you want no matter how batshit so long as it doesn’t meet the very high legal requirements for removal.

Examples:

ONE:

My SIL does F all with her child and he’s now 2.5 years old. He literally does not leave the house other than for absolute essentials such as medical appointments. He doesn’t go to nursery despite it being free (she doesn’t work). He’s never been swimming, to feed the ducks, to the beach or the local park. He’s never met other children outside of his cousins. He’s only ever been to soft play twice when I have physically picked them up to take them with me and my dc.
He only ever leaves the house when my in-laws take him food shopping with them just to get him out. He can literally go 1-2 weeks without being outside his front door.
SIL on the other hand goes on holidays, days out with her boyfriend, cocktails with friends etc. She just has the in-laws babysit when she does. Her reasoning? ‘It’s a faff’ ‘the weather is bad’ or she ‘can’t be arsed today’. She was very lazy before becoming a parent but her laziness now has extended to her child who literally lives his entire life within the confines of the house. It’s nothing to do with mental health on her part, it’s pure laziness. She’ll only take him out if a member of the family with a car physically goes and picks them up and drops them back off home. The nursery is less than a 5 minute walk from her house. She was badgered by the health visitor to enroll him so she did it, took him for a week and then never bothered again as it was ‘too much faffing about for just a few hours’.

He lives off microwave meals and tinned food. Wakes up and spends the entire day in front of the tv or with his tablet. When my in-laws went away last year he didn’t leave the house for 3 weeks!!

It doesn’t meet the legal requirements or thresholds for social services. He is fed and clothed and has lots of toys. But it’s crazy that he is able to spend his entire life within the confines of a house and that’s that.

TWO:

My cousin. Very well educated, affluent and has always been a bit eccentric as is her DH. However over the years they have joined a kind of weird religion/cult like group and are massive conspiracy theorists. They homeschool their kids (fine), but have indoctrinated them with mad beliefs. The kids including the baby are vegan. Their unvaccinated. They can only bath in this specially filtered water. The kids are feral and not allowed to watch tv, listen to any type of mainstream music only this specifically selected whale like music. They avoid any type of radiation and limit sources of power so in the evenings the house is lit by candlelight and an open fire. The kids wear this robe like clothing that seems impractical. The kids no nothing outside of their parents beliefs. They have no awareness of the outside world. They only socialise with the other people in this conspiracy group that also homeschool.

My cousin and her husband are well meaning and obviously it’s their right to believe what they wish. But their kids won’t know how to use the internet, any real world references, learn about other religions or cultures. Surely this will do long term harm in some way?

The children couldn’t tell you what spaghetti bolognaise is or what a smartphone/tablet is or that there was ever a world war or even how what a kettle
is for. But they can tell you about crystal healing powers. What if when they get to 18 they want to live a ‘mainstream’ life and join society? How will they manage? Get a job? Make friends with peers?

It’s not that I believe there’s only one right way to parent or anything because I don’t. However I find it mad that you can have a baby and so long as you meet very basic standards, you can literally do as you want with actual human beings.

Please tell me if I’m being unreasonable to think it’s not right and if I am being unreasonable why so? I feel so sorry for these children.

Could go into more detail? I’d find it interesting if you have time

I would love to live in a world where every child is wanted and planned for and then supported by their family and society to develop their own skills and talents to the best of their ability.

However we don't live in that world. Many people have children without planning, or even thought and without the skills or finances to give them what they need. Our UK society does support families in a minimal way but there is so much more they could do to help families financially and practically for the benefit of all our children.

We all do our best as parents and I don't think any of us have managed to get through parenting without making mistakes, big and small. We are mostly 'good enough' and that should be okay. We all fail in different ways - sometimes by doing the opposite of our own parents because of how we think they failed us (and often creating a different kind of problem)

We have a system that tries to deal with situations where the mistakes being made are leading to actual harm. It's far from perfect but I'm glad it's there and I wish our government would reduce the paperwork and increase the funding/resourcing for it.

Parenting is hard and we would all benefit of being supportive of each other rather than critical. If you have real concerns about these children then you should be contacting social services.

The first one must be on the radar of some authority if the health visitor has been involved. I suppose if it’s not sending red flags, there’s not much that can be done.

I agree that he needs far more stimulation that he’s getting though. I wonder if she’ll bother to enroll him in school when the time comes.

The only thing is at least when child a gets to school there is some form of hope that that environment will help them, Id worry for someone being homeschooled where the parents push a certain direction as there’s nobody to step in? I’ll admit op when I saw your title I thought I’d be saying you were being unreasonable but you’re totally right, pity there isn’t a check in of some kind, although saying that, who does the check in? We thought my son had dyspraxia and went to chat to two women, son is a bit nerdy and made some jokes and one thought he was brilliant, the other made a note that he regularly spoke out of turn and found it odd that he still went out on walks with us at the weekend (other lady had seen him out and proclaimed how lovely it was he still spent time with us. I had to convince the lady he did have friends and didn’t have social issues)

I agree with every response so far.

How do you judge it? And by whose standards?

I guess this is where my unreasonableness comes in.

I don’t think I’m a perfect parent at all. There are a hundred things people could judge me on I’m sure. But then I think there’s an unwritten line. When things aren’t quite abuse but also aren’t right by the majorities standards?

So SIL in example 1. Okay, he is warm, clothed and fed. Not abused. But then he lives his life in pyjamas. You’ll see him in a Christmas onesie at 2pm in August. It’ll be a lovely day of sunshine and he hasn’t left his house in 10 days and won’t for another week or so. He won’t see a soul or experience the sun or going on a swing or slide. Another day being sat in front on the tv with his tablet and bag of crisps on his own whilst SIL games. This will be repeated every single day through summer until grandparents are able to come and physically get him to take him out.

Most people would say that’s out of order and borderline neglect. However legally no laws have been broken and he doesn’t meet any thresholds for abuse so it is what it is. He can be damned to that life forevermore and there’s nothing we can do about it.
That’s what i find mind blowing.

Children do learn about the outside world once they get to school. If parents choose to home school then I do think that there should be some official checks done that the children are receiving a certain standard of education. I think this should include an understanding of the world beyond their homes and the skills they will need in later life to obtain employment.

Only due to deliberate underfunding of all public services.

We have cut social services to the bone.

That's a political choice.

This is a very difficult subject - not least because what some consider to be wholly unacceptable parental behaviour, others don’t see as wrong. My personal issue is smoking in the home or family car - but my lovely neighbour when I was a child did it. And wondered why her kids all had chest complaints …

At the other end, I’ve momentarily felt shamed when a fellow nursery parent talked about how some families feed their toddlers disgusting unhealthy food like sausages. I then went home and cooked sausages- and decided to ignore it. Maybe I’m some peoples idea of a bad parent because of processed meat. I’d certainly be condemned by the breast feeding devotees who consider ff unacceptable.

Its very sad that we have to wait until things go wrong because we won't teach even basic parenting skills in school.

Well well well.
Next, I suggest we build a camp where all these sterilised unfit parents can go do free work for society and those who are unable to fulfil their quota can be told they are going to take a shower...
Oh, wait

Important to bear in mind that the higher rate of failure and criminality is within the schooled population.

It is easy to obsess about home educated children but what is being done about the serious problems in schools?

Jfc. Glad you're not in power.

It would be nuts to teach 'parenting' in school.

This is what fascist governments do.

If you want a free country, you have to accept people are free.

It's the lesser of two evils. The alternative is ideological state policing of every aspect of one's upbringing and intrusive authoritarian compliance monitoring with teachers and nursery workers being required to inform on those whose personal lives don't match the state sanctioned parenting methods. That's where it leads, even if that's not your intention. And no one wants that.

The system we have allows for freedom of choice - surely that should be the case with parenting - but it has a safety net where social services get involved.

You seem to want freedom of choice for yourself but not for others - or, you're angry when others make different choices.

WTAF @DotJones.

So you believe that people should be forced to have terminations and be sterilised against their will I think this says a lot about as a person. I don't think there is many who can align with those values.

Also a TV license isn't there for you to operate the TV it's just the name of it ut it's payment for the service provided.

What I find mindblowing is that you let it happen.

Social Services have a huge remit and a limited budget, they have to lok the other way on cases like this because there simply isn't the resource and he isn't in obvious physical danger.

YOU, on the other hand, know the family, have a child of your own, this poor unfortunate kid's cousin. Presumably about the same age. By all accounts the SIL is not averse to family taking the kid out, she just doesn't want to do it herself. Why don't you get involved? Take him out with your own kids at the weekend. Don't let him go weeks stuck in the house. How can you fulminate about it on MN, acknowledge nothing will be done by the state, and then do nothing yourself? Your own nephew?

Society has got very far from the idea that it takes a village to raise a child. We expect the state to do everything, and in an ideal world there would be state capacity to protect, nurture and develop this child, but there simply isn't. The number of children killed by their parents every year tells you clearly they've got their hands full.

So it's on you, the person who sees it clearly for what it is, who has access and a position from which to do something, who has responsibility here. Why aren't you doing anything?

This thread is basically 'I'm not a fascist, I just want the state to control family life'

If you want state oversight of private/family life, please understand that is fascism. And that is not good.

Example 1 - that's basically a good example of my NDN. She has a 2yo and I hardly see her taking the 2yo outdoors. I was out daily with all mine rain or shine! I am baffled as to how people can stay cooped up indoors with small children day in day out. I would go mad!!!!

Where do you draw the line though ? I see parents giving their DC Fruitshoots and judge them but it’s not up to me to protect their DC’s teeth. There is no such thing as perfect parenting and if you took a long hard look at your own parenting you might be ashamed to admit it is far from perfect.

And yet people who choose not to have kids because they know they wouldn’t make good parents are labelled selfish……

I actually think one thing that would improve society as a whole would be to make 20 hours (fully funded) education compulsory a week from age one. Obviously this would be age appropriate but it would save so many children from shit parents.

So you clearly have no idea what it's like to home school then or you would know everything there. Homes school get the exact same as school it's wether the parent takes it up or not same as if you go to school you can refuse all of it to

The first example is dreadful. It's sheer neglect to allow a child to stay inside the house for days or weeks in end.
The parents sound feckless, unfortunately, and they're not likely to change.

The second example is a bit better as the child can socialise with other children. Even if he's being brought up in that particular way, he might abandon it when he gets older and more able to think for himself.

Unless you want more state intervention, and that's not going to happen, both for economic and moral reasons, then the parents are free to choose how to bring up their own children.

Lots of people have absolutely batshit parents and they manage to lead decent lives as adults. And sadly, there are far more extreme cases of child abuse than these.

Both examples as are upsetting. None of the kids in either scenario as re prepared for the real world when they grow up, which is a parent's job (not just food and clothes and shelter). Very sad

Imagine the alternative. A set standard all families have to meet to be allowed to have and keep children. What a dystopian nightmare. There's no way it would be workable in a way that would be in line with human rights. Who is going to decide what the standard is? Who is going to authorise "exceptions", such as allowing disabled children to have a lower mandated amount of hours outdoors? What happens when people don't meet these standards?

I have done support work (for disabled adults) for nearly a decade now, and in the outreach part of my job, I have thoroughly learnt that you CANNOT "change for the better" someone else's life, in terms of looking at it, finding the "faults" and changing them to your preferred ways. People live fundamentally different lives, all of us, even those of us in the same neighbourhood!

And guess what? Sometimes it is the children of "well functioning", well respected and reputable families who are the most miserable and damaged. And sometimes the children of eccentric families end up the most happy and fulfilled. The nuances of what makes a happy, healthy and safe upbringing are many, and too detailed to quantify.

Abuse is abuse, I think we can all agree on that, and unacceptable. But beyond that, the idiosyncrasies in our lives are what make us who we are, and what give us a varied world. Variety is essential for health, progress and enjoyment of life.