To think it’s crazy you can parent whatever way you want?!

[ItsGivingJudgey]

This OP will sound judgey has hell hence my username. I’ve NC but long time user.

I know it’s a free country (in the UK at least). I also really support human rights, however I still find it mad that you can have a child and raise them whatever way you want no matter how batshit so long as it doesn’t meet the very high legal requirements for removal.

Examples:

ONE:

My SIL does F all with her child and he’s now 2.5 years old. He literally does not leave the house other than for absolute essentials such as medical appointments. He doesn’t go to nursery despite it being free (she doesn’t work). He’s never been swimming, to feed the ducks, to the beach or the local park. He’s never met other children outside of his cousins. He’s only ever been to soft play twice when I have physically picked them up to take them with me and my dc.
He only ever leaves the house when my in-laws take him food shopping with them just to get him out. He can literally go 1-2 weeks without being outside his front door.
SIL on the other hand goes on holidays, days out with her boyfriend, cocktails with friends etc. She just has the in-laws babysit when she does. Her reasoning? ‘It’s a faff’ ‘the weather is bad’ or she ‘can’t be arsed today’. She was very lazy before becoming a parent but her laziness now has extended to her child who literally lives his entire life within the confines of the house. It’s nothing to do with mental health on her part, it’s pure laziness. She’ll only take him out if a member of the family with a car physically goes and picks them up and drops them back off home. The nursery is less than a 5 minute walk from her house. She was badgered by the health visitor to enroll him so she did it, took him for a week and then never bothered again as it was ‘too much faffing about for just a few hours’.

He lives off microwave meals and tinned food. Wakes up and spends the entire day in front of the tv or with his tablet. When my in-laws went away last year he didn’t leave the house for 3 weeks!!

It doesn’t meet the legal requirements or thresholds for social services. He is fed and clothed and has lots of toys. But it’s crazy that he is able to spend his entire life within the confines of a house and that’s that.

TWO:

My cousin. Very well educated, affluent and has always been a bit eccentric as is her DH. However over the years they have joined a kind of weird religion/cult like group and are massive conspiracy theorists. They homeschool their kids (fine), but have indoctrinated them with mad beliefs. The kids including the baby are vegan. Their unvaccinated. They can only bath in this specially filtered water. The kids are feral and not allowed to watch tv, listen to any type of mainstream music only this specifically selected whale like music. They avoid any type of radiation and limit sources of power so in the evenings the house is lit by candlelight and an open fire. The kids wear this robe like clothing that seems impractical. The kids no nothing outside of their parents beliefs. They have no awareness of the outside world. They only socialise with the other people in this conspiracy group that also homeschool.

My cousin and her husband are well meaning and obviously it’s their right to believe what they wish. But their kids won’t know how to use the internet, any real world references, learn about other religions or cultures. Surely this will do long term harm in some way?

The children couldn’t tell you what spaghetti bolognaise is or what a smartphone/tablet is or that there was ever a world war or even how what a kettle
is for. But they can tell you about crystal healing powers. What if when they get to 18 they want to live a ‘mainstream’ life and join society? How will they manage? Get a job? Make friends with peers?

It’s not that I believe there’s only one right way to parent or anything because I don’t. However I find it mad that you can have a baby and so long as you meet very basic standards, you can literally do as you want with actual human beings.

Please tell me if I’m being unreasonable to think it’s not right and if I am being unreasonable why so? I feel so sorry for these children.

The line between freedom and tolerance and also the children's rights is complicated. For example, there are children in the UK who are homeschooled/ attend unregistered schools where they don't even learn English. IMO, all children should have the chance to at least learn basic English and maths if the live in the UK. Otherwise, how can they ever make their own choices as adults?

Some people would say that the state would be massively overstepping to impose that kind of rule on all children.

First sounds pretty tragic, second sounds pretty batshit but perfectly fine in many ways, who needs internet and TV - my grandad learned to use the internet in his late 70's! Glad they're not out socialising outside of their batshit circle since they're unvaccinated.

@Dotjones how would that work? Who would set the standard of what was acceptable?

I was talking to a volunteer sports coach who gives up their time for free to train ten year-olds and arrange matches for them. He is viewed as a free childminder and often has parents turning up half an hour late to collect cold, dirty and fed up children.
I asked if there are any that refuse to listen or follow instructions. His response was "What, other than the children of teachers?"

The one and only time I saw one of her dc upset over what they have been taught was when I looked after them and went into the garden to see her ds trying to knock down my wasp trap - he took one look at me and burst into tears saying ‘did you see ? Oh no did you see?’ Then sobbed and then told me how his mum had taught them that the kindest acts are the ones nobody ever knows about or witnesses as they are done genuinely and not to impress anyone and only the creator sees’ he had wanted to free the wasps that were suffering and was so so upset his kindness had been witnessed ‘by a mortal’

@herewegoroundthebastardbush

I can feel your frustration about SIL and I agree entirely with you!

Our own circumstances do not enable us to be able to physically take him out regularly or trust me we would!!

When we are able to, we do!!

Other posters have asked about confronting the issues and what not.

Well a few twice PIL have tried to sit her down and say things need to change. Every time it ends in tears.
The last time she finally enrolled him in nursery using the 15 free hours. Great we all thought. This is fab. the nursery is a 9 minute walk away according to google maps too! Couldn’t be better!

She did it for a week. Less than a week actually, 4 sessions including the taster.

Her reasoning? ‘It’s all a big faff for just a few hours’.

The same with meals. Cooking is a ‘faff’ when he ‘probably won’t eat it anyway’.

Everything is a ‘faff’ as she puts it when it comes to taking him anywhere or doing anything.

Someone mentioned mental health. No she is not depressed, far from. This was her lifestyle BEFORE dc. Living in her pyjamas, watching boxsets, gaming and takeaways. She would only leave the house for drinks out and dating. But pretty much has always lived life like a teenager would during the holidays.

When she was pregnant her mum actually said ‘this will be the making of her’ as it was assumed she’d have to actually get out of the house and do things. But no, instead her toddler has just joined in the lifestyle.

The first example would probably warrant threshold of concern or even a different type of intervention. If she cannot bothered with taking him to nursery - how is she going to manage school.

Fiesta example seems neglectful and lonely for the child.

The second example seems like a brilliant way to live. Society is totally batshit at the moment. No one needs TV or screen time, and certainly not children. Feral sounds like freedom to play, explore the world and use imagination. I bet the children in the second example are having a great time. More power to them.

Who decides what the 'right' way to raise a child is, many on here seem completely unaware what dangerous talk this is.

The way you describe SIL does sound like she's struggling with depression or maybe ADHD or other condition that causes executive dysfunction.

I know it can be frustrating to hear things like that when you're close to the person and have insight into who they are and how they've always been; but, the lifestyle you describe before having her son sounds dysfunctional and indicative of some kind of struggle. People often feel huge, huge shame around not being able to do what is expected of them, for example hold down a job, go out and about regularly, keep a tidy house, cook meals, plan activities, etc. This leads many people who struggle with this stuff to be blase about it and put on a front of "oh I just don't care", "oh I'm happy like this can't be arsed with anything else!". In reality it sounds like she struggles to manage "life" in general.

I'm not making excuses for her lack of engagement with her son and lack of enrichment and stimulation she provides him with. Not at all. No matter what her struggles, her child deserves his needs met. But I'd encourage you to try and look with fresh eyes, because she doesn't sound happy and fulfilled. She might just be putting on a front to deal with the shame. I believe she will be feeling shame.

What makes you say that it isn't poor mental health? If she had poor mental health before her son was born, then it is possible that she still has poor mental health.

It sounds like she could benefit from some low level intervention such as Early Help.

What an unusual family you have.

Still, the kids can't be that isolated from the world of 'normal' people, since you have been allowed to observe their lives in such detail.

(Soft play is the pits. Never took mine either.)

It can't be both - your SIL can't stay in all the time and the toddler never gets out but somehow your SIL is also out for cocktails, away on holiday, and the toddler gets watched by GPs. Unless you're saying that the GPs also do nothing with the toddler and SIL's behaviour is learned behaviour from her parents?
Midwives and HVs and GPs don't just look at whether a baby is clean and has toys. They do monitor development and interaction, and send for more support if necessary. Likewise in schools. That kind of light touch is probably the best approach imo.
As for the cousins - you seem to know an awful lot about people who supposedly don't interact with anyone outside their belief group.
I'm always sceptical of people who want to 'police' parenting. Historically, their motivations are usually suspect and have little to do with protection of DCs and a lot to do with separating them from their parents and family units.

Ach I knew someone would say that.

Truly you do not need to be a teacher to home educate. Whilst there are a few of us, most of the other parents I know are most definitely not and they manage to access the same opportunities and resources I do. I do not have a special talent for accessing special resources despite my degree. All of the other home ed parents I know curate their child’s educations as well as I do.

But I take your point in that it may seem that way to a lay-person. Trust me, me being a teacher has been a hindrance if anything!

I think that not vaccinating children is wrong. There are many reasons for this such as measles. Not vaccinating a child against measles means that if the child contracts measles and then comes into contact with a baby, the baby could die. Pertussis can leave a baby with lifelong incontinence problems. Tetanus is also a killer. Diphtheria is actually on the increase in some countries. And that’s before we think about other viruses such as rubella, chickenpox which can lie dormant for years and then it’s hello 👋 shingles. So basically the child, other children/babies, and the immunocompromised will possibly pay the price because a parent didn’t want to vaccinate their child.

As far as laziness goes though, I don’t think there’s a solution other than the one which the in-laws in the first scenario are doing which is taking the child out and giving his days some sort of structure.

Cults or weird beliefs is again not something that there’s really an answer to. People believe what they want to believe.

I think then that that is quite a unique set of people/circumstance based on what you have said.
I don’t recognize it at all and I’ve been home educating for years and have met many. I’d be very surprised if there was a secret ‘hidden’ sect of people doing it in those circumstances.

Please don’t think it’s a class thing as a general rule despite the people you know who do it ‘right’. That makes me so disappointed to hear someone make that assumption. Nearly everyone HE family I know would be classed as working class as a rule. There are the odd ones who may at a push be called middle class.

Religious Schools in the UK teach young children that a man died and then literally rose from the dead. We have far bigger issues in this country than one family passing on their equally odd beliefs onto their DC.

1?
Many babies are still breastfeeding every few hours at 1.
I quit work because my 1 year old was so needy I couldn't imagine his needs being met in a room where there were carers being stretched looking after other babies and children too.
I can promise he's thriving as a 19 year old in college though so it hasn't held him back giving him an extra bit of nurturing as a baby.

I think some people are being a bit harsh on the OP. Of course it's hard to decide who decides/how we police parenting 'rules' or baselines. And of course there are dangers as soon as you start even talking about it in terms of rules or baselines. I don't have an answer. But with the first child here, it makes me think of the reports we're seeing from teachers or reception classes of kids born during the pandemic, who are developmentally behind in communication/social skills, even toilet training. No, it's not abuse like FGM or honour killing, or even depriving children of food, but it is detrimental to them.

And I think withholding teaching the sciences is pretty unacceptable too, whatever your belief system.

Telling the OP she is at fault for not taking her SIL's child out more isn't very fair either; she has her own life and commitments. Sure, it's great if wider family and friends work together as a 'village' to raise a child, but it's not fair to lay so much responsibility at the OP's door. And she HAS offered to do things like take the SIL and child out, but the SIL won't do it because she won't get on a bus. You can only do so much.

Like I said, I don't have any answers. But I hear the OP's concerns.

Hopefully the little boy will see a world outside his own once he goes to school and want it for himself.

I have a 18 year old relative who’s grown up with lazy parents and who suddenly realised that if they want to escape a lot of the drama that goes on at their house they need to earn a good wage. Suddenly pulled their socks up at school, got amazing grades and has just passed entrance exams for a career that means living away from home (think forces). They are a changed person and all for the better.

Normally I would be very reluctant to say the state should get involved in issues of personal choice family and so on. But it’s reached a point now with small children where I feel we have to intervene as the impact on society in future years will be so enormous. Scenario 2 is nutty but not abusive in my opinion. The kids will grow up and have to spend some time working through the indoctrination but they will manage. They sound well fed, safe and stimulated even if in a very alternative way.

However scenario 1 is different. I fear there are many many many babies and toddlers who are being babysat by tablets and fed junk with no routine or stimulation. Tablets are proven to massively increase language delays in children and I wonder if the huge rise in delayed preschoolers is because of this kind of lifestyle. Sadly many will never really catch up and I dread to think what will happen to them as adults with such poor life chances.

I don’t know what the answer is but it will have to be something more than some gentle encouragement from health visitors and so on as many of the parents simply won’t listen or give a shit and think they know best. That poor little boy.

Well, no, she's saying she has issues with the children being exposed ONLY to their family's way of life and beliefs, rather than to 'mainstream' society, known science etc so they can make informed choices.

Are you in England?

I have a 2.5 year old and absoloutly do not get free nursery. It has been confirmed by both the UC and the nursery that its not until 3 year old. UC says she can start on her 3rd birthday but the Nursery won't accept until the next admissions term 3 months later.

15 hours of care for 2 year olds does not kick in until April next year.

https://educationhub.blog.gov.uk/2023/07/07/free-childcare-how-we-tackling-the-cost-of-childcare/

I also wonder how people have forgot just a few years ago. My 5 year old did barely left the house for the majority of 2 year thanks to Covid, lockdown and being a high risk household... not even weekly trips to the supermarket. Hes surviving perfectly fine as are the millions of others kids who survived being at home.

Also theres nothing wrong with children being vegan, bizarre thing to even mention. Millions of kids have all kinds of dietary requirement some medical and some lifestyle but its perfectly fine.

If they really have isolated school age children and indoctrinated them then social services WILL be interested. You actually can't just take children out of school, isolate them and not teach them the academic requirements. You can home school and you are free to teach the power of crystals all you want but they still have to meet the minimum education requirements. Any child being deliberately isolated will be on their radar.

OP is talking about the 15 hours for 2 year olds that only parents on universal credit, benefits etc get. Not universal childcare.

@tattygrl @SouthLondonMum22

Why don’t I think it’s mental health?

I don’t want to ‘out’ myself as I’ve put a lot of detail on this thread already but I am a professional within this field. I also know a shit ton about neurodivergence.

I assess people day in and day out. It’s also how I know her child doesn’t meet threshold for intervention.

This is SIL ‘baseline’. Not everyone has the same baseline. She can manage her life and finances just fine. She can organise her weekends with her boyfriend just fine. She can do a lot in her own interests.

If there was an incentive for her to leave the house with her toddler then she’d do it. An example of this is when she won a voucher for something she really wanted, she quickly got her toddler up and dressed and out to go and pick it up.

When her boyfriend was brand new and in the throes of passion and wanted to meet her for lunch everyday when he was working in our city, she was up and on that bus with her toddler everyday week.

When she was dating, in-laws would babysit and she would be off on her first dates and off to friends for debriefs.

She’s perfectly capable. For herself she’s fine, for a boring walk to the park or a trip to tedious toddler group it’s a no from her.

Im on a rant now because it feels better to get this down anonymously. But there was an event near her a few months back that was marketed as a family day held in the park. It had food markets, a petting zoo and bouncy castle, it even had rides games. It was walking distance from her estate. It was lovely sunny weather. I sent her the leaflet, in-laws offered to go with her. I saw she posted pictures of the event on social media, great I thought! I messaged and asked if little one liked it. It would have been his first time ever seeing animals, going on a ride and going to that park! She replied he didn’t go, she just went with her boyfriend instead!!

She’d managed to rope her friend into babysitting that afternoon for her so she could go without him! In-laws went straight over and her friend was there watching tv with the little one still in his pyjamas and watching ‘miss Rachel’ on his tablet!

I mean Wtaf!! That is what triggered the last nursery conversation.

Sorry I am ranting but feels good to get it all out!