To think it’s crazy you can parent whatever way you want?!

[ItsGivingJudgey]

This OP will sound judgey has hell hence my username. I’ve NC but long time user.

I know it’s a free country (in the UK at least). I also really support human rights, however I still find it mad that you can have a child and raise them whatever way you want no matter how batshit so long as it doesn’t meet the very high legal requirements for removal.

Examples:

ONE:

My SIL does F all with her child and he’s now 2.5 years old. He literally does not leave the house other than for absolute essentials such as medical appointments. He doesn’t go to nursery despite it being free (she doesn’t work). He’s never been swimming, to feed the ducks, to the beach or the local park. He’s never met other children outside of his cousins. He’s only ever been to soft play twice when I have physically picked them up to take them with me and my dc.
He only ever leaves the house when my in-laws take him food shopping with them just to get him out. He can literally go 1-2 weeks without being outside his front door.
SIL on the other hand goes on holidays, days out with her boyfriend, cocktails with friends etc. She just has the in-laws babysit when she does. Her reasoning? ‘It’s a faff’ ‘the weather is bad’ or she ‘can’t be arsed today’. She was very lazy before becoming a parent but her laziness now has extended to her child who literally lives his entire life within the confines of the house. It’s nothing to do with mental health on her part, it’s pure laziness. She’ll only take him out if a member of the family with a car physically goes and picks them up and drops them back off home. The nursery is less than a 5 minute walk from her house. She was badgered by the health visitor to enroll him so she did it, took him for a week and then never bothered again as it was ‘too much faffing about for just a few hours’.

He lives off microwave meals and tinned food. Wakes up and spends the entire day in front of the tv or with his tablet. When my in-laws went away last year he didn’t leave the house for 3 weeks!!

It doesn’t meet the legal requirements or thresholds for social services. He is fed and clothed and has lots of toys. But it’s crazy that he is able to spend his entire life within the confines of a house and that’s that.

TWO:

My cousin. Very well educated, affluent and has always been a bit eccentric as is her DH. However over the years they have joined a kind of weird religion/cult like group and are massive conspiracy theorists. They homeschool their kids (fine), but have indoctrinated them with mad beliefs. The kids including the baby are vegan. Their unvaccinated. They can only bath in this specially filtered water. The kids are feral and not allowed to watch tv, listen to any type of mainstream music only this specifically selected whale like music. They avoid any type of radiation and limit sources of power so in the evenings the house is lit by candlelight and an open fire. The kids wear this robe like clothing that seems impractical. The kids no nothing outside of their parents beliefs. They have no awareness of the outside world. They only socialise with the other people in this conspiracy group that also homeschool.

My cousin and her husband are well meaning and obviously it’s their right to believe what they wish. But their kids won’t know how to use the internet, any real world references, learn about other religions or cultures. Surely this will do long term harm in some way?

The children couldn’t tell you what spaghetti bolognaise is or what a smartphone/tablet is or that there was ever a world war or even how what a kettle
is for. But they can tell you about crystal healing powers. What if when they get to 18 they want to live a ‘mainstream’ life and join society? How will they manage? Get a job? Make friends with peers?

It’s not that I believe there’s only one right way to parent or anything because I don’t. However I find it mad that you can have a baby and so long as you meet very basic standards, you can literally do as you want with actual human beings.

Please tell me if I’m being unreasonable to think it’s not right and if I am being unreasonable why so? I feel so sorry for these children.

I'd like to see a system where parents and those who are expecting or trying to concieve have to attend classes and reach a certain standard, otherwise the kids are taken away/terminated and the parents sterilised.

Are you actually serious?

I think we are straying into Hitler territory here. I have no words.

There are things that are fine that you mention, but if accurate the overall pic is crazy.
eg my kids are home with me till age 2 and I work from home. There’s no reason why kids NEED to go to nursery, provided that they are getting the right care at home. If anything, mums will generally give more love and care to an infant.
also, my kids don’t watch tv whatsoever (they are still young). I don’t think less screen time or no screen time is insane. Not usual in today’s day and age, but kids can only gain.
id also avoid radiation where possible so I don’t have a microwave (I cook a fresh hot meal for supper every day and dc has hot lunch in school as well). Nothing wrong with that! But I do have a smartphone, so not as strict as them on the radiation.

point being, not everything these people are doing is worthy of having children taken away whatsoever. All together though, the picture you paint is extreme and concerning. Not leaving the house for weeks is absolutely neglectful. Children should get out every day!

Which is exactly what makes it such a terrifying thought and is something that should never happen.

I mean there's lots of abusive families where kids are berated/manipulated etc - yet if no physical violence they stay with parents - which is far worse than your example 1. Those kids would probably love to stay in and watch TV in a relaxed home and see grandparents occasionally.

Also worth saying that sometimes kids from horrible homes actually turn out better as adults than those who are overindulged in everything. It's bizarre but studies have shown that being overprotective/spoiling kids with the 'perfect' life actually causes lots of mental health issues in adults. The other side of this is that neglect and abuse causes mental health issues - neither are good.

Kids from lazy parents usually think/know they're not special and don't get a shock as adults when the world is unkind.

For the cult example, they won't be able to brainwash their kids forever - they'll probs rebel as teens.

I agree - I think it is insane. I constantly ask myself “how am I qualified to be a mother!” But I had my DD young and spent my whole 20s being her mum or working. I couldn’t tell you what’s “cool” and I often have no idea what a normal “20s” of travelling and clubs and freedom looks like but I’ve loved being a mother and know that I’m not perfect. But my DD comes first.

I know for some people their children are either an extension of them, a nuisance, just kids so it doesn’t matter - as opposed to them being seen as people who will grow up, who have feelings, who need to go out and socialise etc etc.

To police parenting you would need to police sex - let’s face it - that will never happen unless you want a Handsmaid tale scenario.

I think there needs to be more support for parents. More free opportunities for parents to exchange information and knowledge. More integration with parents and teachers and it should be government supported - they are the people of tomorrow after all.

I think ops point tho is the grey area. Most of us are doing reasonable attempts. Some are clearly abusive. But ops SIL isn't trying her best if we assume it is laziness not MH and the cousins idea of clearly trying very hard to do the best is going to impact those kids negatively for a long time.
So whilst there's little by way of solutions and no it's claiming they could write a definitive book on it, clearly some children are getting a problematic childhood.

Where do these taken away children go?

Social services are stretched to the limit as it is. Presumably, under this system, you'd predict a fair amount of failures just from people not in step with current ideological practices or people of lower material means. Say 25%. The number of children in care would dramatically increase. What happens to them then? "Taken away" children don't disappear into a void. Are families who have passed the training course going to be forced to parent a set number of children not their own? Do we start having them sleep in school gymnasiums? Who pays for this? And how does society absorb wave after wave of care leavers who were raised with the right amount of soft play and screen time but are launched into the world without support once they age out of the system?

Or by terminate, do you mean living children whose parents don't meet the standards?

Astounding the glibness with which some people will suggest "removing the child" as some sort of panacea for a troubled family.

Removing a child, even from a family that is indeed neglectful or abusive, causes damage and trauma in itself, significantly. This is why there is a balance in what social and child services (and the law!) can do in terms of intervention. Taking a child away from an abusive or neglectful family is not the fairy godmother-esque act of mercy that it may seem. When a child needs to be taken away, it is of course good when they are removed; however, it's like losing a limb. Sometimes necessary, but with inherent trauma, damage and risk for future effects. Only to be done when no other option is available.

I saw a comment upthread suggesting a penalty for a child not being kept up to certain hygiene standards could be "temporary removal" of the child. I wish people would educate themselves on things like this before spouting off "shoulds". There are people who are experts in these areas for a reason. It's incredibly complex.

YABU. It's virtually impossible to judge who is a good parent and who isn't.

To the outside world we were a reasonable middle class family. Not much money but adequately fed and clothed. My mum was active in the PTA and local Guide group. We did our homework on time and were taken to the dentist every 6 months. We went to art galleries and museums and even the occasional stately home.

Behind closed doors we were miserable because we weren't loved. Verbal abuse, emotional neglect and excessive physical discipline were our norms.

These posters have also failed to engage with the non-trivial possibility that all these enhanced opportunities to interfere in family life will attract the percentage of humans who we know are abusers and nonce.

I agree with the above. The first example is concerning and sadly there are lots of parents like that - but not much you can do about that, although I there is an argument that there should be parenting classes offered to everyone and perhaps there could be some incentives to make people attend them (e.g. vouchers).

the second example is not that worrying, provided the kids are being educated and their diet is not too restrictive. There are lots of people who have gone on to achieve great things after having very “different” childhoods and different can be quite positive.

is the child fed, clothed, washed? does the parent show their child affection? is the child safe?
If he's to all then stay in your lane and mind your business.

I was just about to say the same.

There was plenty of weird stuff I was told at school (including if I didn’t turn to Christ if burn in hell).

School itself can be very damaging to children.

It is biology. You don't have to be smart, kind, diligent etc to have a child, just fit enough to carry or father one. However the way society works perhaps we should be happy this is the case, we need enough people at the bottom of society for it to function. People starting at the back foot, who are unlikely to take the top jobs. And if they ever recognise this we can point out the exceptions who made it!

SIL is lazy. She's not parenting well. There's nothing you can do, other than give her DC a good time when you see him.

The home ed family. You are judging them by your standard of normal. So they arent exposed to the latest music or other media. That also means they aren't being exposed to the filth/bullying/societal expectations of consumerism/porn and quite frankly ridiculous and dangerous trends on Tiktok etc. You don't know what they are learning about really. It's just different to the 'norm' and you don't like it. Who's to say who's right or wrong in this situation?
I think it's crazy that parents let their children have unrestricted access to the Internet/phone using at a young age. Then wonder why kids are sexualised from primary school. But they can do them.

Agree with this. I have several relatives who are homeschooling their children, for various reasons. Except they aren't, they just aren't sending them to school. There's a big difference but no one really checks.

Are you for real?

I find HS the most unbelievable though. In my home country you can HS but you have to have the kids assessed by a government official as well. There are regular checks and it's illegal to decide to HS and disappear of the radar. I don't think just because you are a parent you should HS without very, very good reason and this should be monitored very strictly.

As a teacher we see the results of shit parenting all day every day. I bloody well do judge parents as so many children I work with would be completely different if their parents actually parented properly. How do we change it? We call it out and stop all this ‘don’t judge’ attitude. As a society we are failing so many children and it’s only going to get worse

Do you really have ‘several’ relatives that all home educate?! Where do you live?

I home educate my DC and know lots of other family that do too as we all socialise and learn together a lot and I can honestly say I’ve never met a single parent who doesn’t go to the ends of the earth to provide their children with the best possible education/life experience they can. Huge sacrifices are made financially and career-wise for their DC so this hugely surprises me.

This is the bare minimum required to parent a child. And if you are just meeting their very basic needs then this is not good enough. I have worked with children who are never spoken to at home, never read to, never had a game played with them, who are shoved on screen all the time or sent out on their bikes in all weathers until late. All of these children struggle with their behaviour and managing their emotions. It is not ok and people who say we should ‘mind our own business’ are part of the problem.

YABVU and this sort of slippery slope leads to things like the Scottish Government trying to bring in the Named Person Scheme through to Eugenics.

Both examples are harmful. Compulsory school age will be a blessing for the first child if their mother sends them.

I do not have a ‘solution’ or anything which is why I posted to talk about it.

For those concerned about my SIL’s little one. I agree it’s terrible. It really really is.

Trust me when I say there is NOTHING social services can do. He does not meet the threshold or requirements at all.

As another poster put, this is what always surprises me, how grey the grey area is.

My SIL little boy cries his eyes out when we get back to the front door after being out. He doesn’t want to go back inside and it’s likely because he doesn’t know when on earth he’ll step foot back outside again. The front door is always locked on both locks as he literally swings himself off the door handle when you visit and tries to make a runner for it when he knows you’re about to go.

Don’t get me wrong, he has soooo many toys! Toys upon toys upon toys! My dc loves it when we pop as it’s like a toy shop. But that’s because he doesn’t leave the damn house.

The most surprising thing about my SIL is, she wants more dc!! I’m not joking. She genuinely wants more kids. None of us have any idea why when she doesn’t do a thing with the one she’s got. Why on earth would she want more?! Make no sense.

I guess he is a very easy toddler. His life is the tv, tablet and snacks. He doesn’t really throw tantrums. He just gets up, has the tv put on with a charged up tablet handed to him and that’s it for the day.

She lives on the same estate as a children’s centre that is free to access and literally at her feet. She’s never been.

He’s never been on a train or seen any real life animals other than my dog when I bring him over. Not even a cat or anything.

He's not ever seen a beach or the sea or even a field.

I could write an entire thread about this situation and I may do some day as the situation is diabolical and I’ve never known anything like it. I honestly believe if it wasn’t for grandparents and a few other family members, he would go months without stepping foot outside that house. The only time he would leave would be if she literally had no other choice.

YABU

You start by stating "I know it’s a free country (in the UK at least). I also really support human rights", yet then go on to contradict this in your hugely judgemental post.

In terms of your second scenario, your cousin. I wouldn't be surprised if the reality is nothing like your description. Being a home educator myself, I've had people like yourself (highly judgemental), describe home educators (they always call it home schooling for some reason despite in the UK, the legal term being home education, which is very different to home "schooling"), as "out there", "feral", "conspiracy theorists", "unvaccinated", etc. We get massively judged for our decision to educate our own children, how we see fit. The reality is often very different to what people like yourself think. I've had people call me and my family all those things you've used to describe your cousin, yet we're very much a 'normal' family, other than we don't send our children to school.

People like you really do my head in, you're so bloody judgey and narrow-minded. Just mind your own business in future and leave these family members who you clearly dislike alone. They will be able to enjoy their lives a lot more without the Parenting Police judging them.

ETA: just re-read a snippet from your post " Their unvaccinated. They can only bath in this specially filtered water." It's "they're", not "their", and so what? There are plenty of unvaccinated children in schools. It's not mandatory in this country and there are lots of medical reasons as to why some people should not be vaccinated (due to contraindications), it's not a crime not to vaccinate, plenty of doctors don't vaccinate their children. Just because you made a (hopefully) informed decision to vaccinate, doesn't mean that those who also made an informed decision not to vaccinate are wrong. Specially filtered water? Good for them. Tap water contains lots of dangerous toxins. That's why for example, if you keep tropical fish, you cannot just stick tap water in the tank. I think I'd get on rather well with your cousin and her DH, they sound like my kind of people. Enjoying our lives, doing what's best for our family and ignoring the nasty, judgemental twats like you.