AIBU to take my son into the female changing room?

[JustKeepSwimmingAlong]

I’ve taken my kids swimming tonight, both have separate swimming lessons and I swam with one while the other had theirs. Eldest is male, 9 and has multiple additional needs including ADHD, ASD and some physical disabilities which means he struggles to change himself. Youngest is in nursery so can dress herself but does need supervision. We got out the pool and realised all the changing rooms were full. There were 8 classes on over multiple pools, as well as general swim on at the same time. There’s only two family/accessible changing rooms and the others are all individual. There were literal queues for the large changing rooms.
I then noticed people going out of the group change. I’ve not used it before, but there was a male and a female changing room, so we went in the females. There was no one in it so started laying out the kids clothes and getting them to shower. Got them out the showers and started to get them dressed and people started coming in. There were a couple of mums with young girls and boys, and then a teenager looking girl came in by herself. She immediately came over to tell me that we were in the female room. I explained my son needed help getting changed and the changing rooms were full, but this room had been empty so we’d used it rather than standing wet and cold waiting for a changing room.
We were nearly Finished and my son was fully dressed when she arrived. He sat next to me, facing the wall and we left within a few minutes. During this time, she did get changed, so we didn’t delay her. Now I’m wondering if I was unreasonable?
I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, but I really don’t know what else I could have done in the situation? There’s too many classes and too few changing rooms, and we need a larger/accessible one, but they’re the only ones with baby change so they’re really
Popular. The lessons are every week so now I’m wondering what I can do next week? Would I be unreasonable to keep using the group change if there are no other options available?

OP took the male into a communal female only area.

I have more than one autistic child. They can queue for a time but we choose to stay in the water and wait for a free room. Two of them are male.

Using the reasoning of some here, my 19 year old autistic male 'child' deserves to be able to access the female changing rooms with me because it's easier for me and they have a disability. I'll just make sure I bring the report with the diagnosis and I'm good to go.

I have never taken an age inappropriate male into a woman's changing area. Disability is not an excuse. Accommodations can be made by communicating with the centre. People are very accommodating when given the chance.

He’s a 9 year old. A child. YANBU OP.

but mumsnet is bonkers on such subjects.

@itsdark

Exactly, everyone has at least one person in their social circle or family with disability, but they don’t do anything about it because it doesn’t impact them unless they are the carer. And carers are usually too exhausted to fight.

Everywhere I take my DS we have to ring ahead and make arrangements, to make sure facilities/accommodations are in place.

Where a place doesn’t have provision I write directing them to advice regarding what they are legally obligated to provide and information on what is provided in similar organisations.

I don’t have to, but I do it because everywhere should be accessible, and I can’t stand DS being excluded or treated badly.

Probably why I have empathy for OP.

We do use family rooms, or the accessible rooms wherever possible. Otherwise we end up with stupid situations having to take turns to change so that someone can be outside the changing room with DS because he can’t be left alone.

It is a bugger of a situation though… I’ve been challenged by other people before who don’t believe I should have any non disabled people in the accessible space with me. Disabled women really can’t win no matter what we do.

I live and breathe caring for autistic people all day everyday, so you can't tell me what it's like. Part of my job is to advocate and I do it when I need to.

What I have never done is taken an age inappropriate autistic male into a women's changing room. I make other arrangements. OP was caught in a situation and made a snap decision, which she later thought better of. I can give her that. It's not appropriate to let it continue though. Now she knows, she can make other arrangements.

Sorry you had that experience. Some people have no clue. I just piled my lot into one room. Safest way to get everyone changed.

I get what you are saying @DoktorPeppa there is a spectrum and autistic people vary along this; for instance some are violent, some aren’t.

With regard to queues it is in the top five of accommodations for autistics so you can surmise from that that it is an issue for a vast majority.

Regards concept of time, you can expect this to be prevalent, particularly where there is comorbid ADHD, which there is with OP’s son.

Can I ask the reasons why you don't take him into the make changing rooms.

As would unexpectedly finding that the space she is normally able to change in is unavailable @DoktorPeppa and having to wait for X time for that space to be available, which would set off her timings and routine for the rest of the day.

Because you used the collective “we” in your post… so I addressed the collective “we” that you had made yourself a part of.

To be honest @LolaSmiles while I understand your concern the sort of child that needs help to this level is really unlikely to develop into the sort of man you describe.

I think sometimes it’s worth remembering who and what situation you are talking about

What part of speaking generally means I was talking about the OP's child?

It is an observation about male pattern behaviour (which at one end has extreme offenders and at the other end has otherwise nice enough guys who don't get boundaries well enough or have a lot of grey ideas about privacy and don't get the big deal about single sex spaces) and it doesn't just appear at 18.

Those of us with sons have a responsibility to teach them about privacy, dignity, respect, consent and why single sex spaces are important in my opinion.

I think it's much, much more difficult to do that if in one breath a parent says "you get changed separately from PE in juniors because boys and girls have the right to change with their own sex" but then 24 hours later they take their son swimming and instead of going somewhere with appropriate family changing and then bring their 10/11/12 year old boy into female changing, showing no respect for a 10/11/12 year old girls privacy and single sex space, and worse making it clear that if a girl feels uncomfortable with it she should shut up about it because the men's changing has problems.
What does a 10/11/12 year old boy learn here? That girls deserve privacy and single sex changing when it's easy, but if it's a bit of an inconvenience then it doesn't matter? That it's a girl's job to manage her feelings and get over it if she feels uncomfortable? That if male behaviour is a problem then other groups should budge up?

This- if anyone really does want to help- please email my local massive shopping centre about their toilets!

There is a room for breast feeding/has a toddler sized cubicle in there and changing tables- my chair doesn’t fit.

There is a womens bathroom- long corridor of cubicles with the ‘accessible’ toilet at the far end.

There is a man’s bathroom with a line of urinals, 2 cubicles and the ‘accessible’ cubicle at the end.

These are the only toilets provided.

So, when I take my (disabled) son there what do we do? Do I take him to walk as quickly as possible to the ‘accessible’ cubicle in the women's room? This will make some women uncomfortable because DS is 9.

or do I do the same in the men’s room? This would make me (a woman) uncomfortable and possibly unsafe, especially since I am disabled and therefore more vulnerable. It also makes DS uncomfortable (because he doesn’t like to see unknown adults with their bits out like they are at urinals). This basically isn’t an option because DS would take one look and leave- I can’t drag him because of the aforementioned wheelchair.

So, basically there isn’t an answer. Either we invade a female space (albeit one with cubicles), or we are excluded from the centre- where the shoe shops/santas grotto/home Ed meet ups/charity events etc are run.

Feel free to pm me for details to contact them and tell them they are wankers.

Wouldn't bother me. Anyone who has problems with accompanied male children seeing their bits can invest in something like a swimming wrap - towel tube with elastic on the top and slits for hands/arms. I used to swim a lot and never showed a thing using these - even change on a beach in them.

I don't think many people would have a problem with a male child in a women's toilet. Like you said, there are cubicles so privacy is assured. We don't use urinals in the women's. A changing room is a different prospect.

I agree, now she knows.

He’s two months beyond age 8!!

I wouldn’t have known either, DS is my only male child; I had presumed primary school age was fine… but evidently it’s not beyond year 3.

As it happens with my son no one would notice because he has waist length hair, wears gender neutral clothes, carries a handbag and often has makeup on- he is NOT trans before anyone brings that up- we are a gender critical household, he is a boy who at the moment enjoys looking like this. So, everyone would think he is a girl anyway.

But that isn’t the point really- he is disabled and should be able to access an appropriate space, and women shouldn’t have biological males in their space.

The thing is, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Otherwise you might as well let me bring my 19 year old autistic son in with me. It's easier for me after all. (I'd never do that).

I didn't have any boys till #4 and #5 child, so I can't really remember when it became an issue. I think family change rooms may have come in at my swimming centre right about the time I might have had to think about it, so we all just piled in there and got changed together. I found it better to have them all contained while I changed the baby from swimming clothes and helped the toddlers. I could also get changed much faster because I felt less self conscious.

Obviously I had to do the standard thing when they got to the age when they wanted to use the boy toilets. Their emerging sense of maleness was important to me to support but I found a way to do it without going into female spaces and keeping them safe at the same time. I think that was about age 7 or 8. Can't remember exactly.

I wouldn't have had an issue with OP in the instance she described, maybe would have assumed he was younger than he looked, but she does have to think of a new approach because he's getting to that age where it's not going to be okay any longer.

That doesn't answer why you specifically tagged me and nobody else.

Older boys need to stay out of the female changing rooms. 8 is the cut off and I even think that is too late. Girls and women deserve privacy and that overrides your need for convenience. Don't do it again.

Please remember that by the time your son reaches the end of primary school, lots of girls in his class will be well into puberty, likely some with their periods. The last thing they'd want to see is a boy from their school in their changing room!

@Heresapickle I often wonder if those adding/creating accessible toilets etc actually know what accessible means.

In your example I would also say that taking your son into the accessible toilet cubicle in the female facilities is the best option for you all, with things as they stand.

However, you/he/your wife shouldn't even be faced with this choice though, as we already said, there needs to be unisex individual accessible cubicles alongside other facilities.

Also, anyone who begrudges you having a non-disabled person in the changing cubicle with you really needs to spend some time working on their compassion for other people!

Heresapickle
Poorly designed facilities are awful.

We've definitely complained to some places for it when DC were younger.

Sometimes I find myself curious about the levels of representation and voice that goes into designing facilities.

For example poorly designed "accessible" facilities that aren't accessible to the people who need them, poor provision of unisex family facilities in venues that are likely to require a lot of family facilities, sexist decisions about parenting roles such as putting the only baby changing facilities in the women's.

Then when things are designed poorly, there seems to be two (unacceptable) "solutions":

• make the women's facilities unisex because of either issues with male pattern behaviour and no family facilities
• send anyone with an issue with the existing male/female facilities into the disabled facilities

I could be way off the mark but I suspect the people round the table are likely to not be in groups most affected by terrible planning and poor facilities.

Next time post on the SN board @JustKeepSwimmingAlong people will help you think of ways round the obstacles and nobody will make you feel shit about it. There are many many very kind and helpful people in the world. They tend to be quieter so they don’t stand out but they are there. Just keep swimming.