AIBU to take my son into the female changing room?

[JustKeepSwimmingAlong]

I’ve taken my kids swimming tonight, both have separate swimming lessons and I swam with one while the other had theirs. Eldest is male, 9 and has multiple additional needs including ADHD, ASD and some physical disabilities which means he struggles to change himself. Youngest is in nursery so can dress herself but does need supervision. We got out the pool and realised all the changing rooms were full. There were 8 classes on over multiple pools, as well as general swim on at the same time. There’s only two family/accessible changing rooms and the others are all individual. There were literal queues for the large changing rooms.
I then noticed people going out of the group change. I’ve not used it before, but there was a male and a female changing room, so we went in the females. There was no one in it so started laying out the kids clothes and getting them to shower. Got them out the showers and started to get them dressed and people started coming in. There were a couple of mums with young girls and boys, and then a teenager looking girl came in by herself. She immediately came over to tell me that we were in the female room. I explained my son needed help getting changed and the changing rooms were full, but this room had been empty so we’d used it rather than standing wet and cold waiting for a changing room.
We were nearly Finished and my son was fully dressed when she arrived. He sat next to me, facing the wall and we left within a few minutes. During this time, she did get changed, so we didn’t delay her. Now I’m wondering if I was unreasonable?
I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, but I really don’t know what else I could have done in the situation? There’s too many classes and too few changing rooms, and we need a larger/accessible one, but they’re the only ones with baby change so they’re really
Popular. The lessons are every week so now I’m wondering what I can do next week? Would I be unreasonable to keep using the group change if there are no other options available?

Then we wonder why some men struggle with consent issues while the parents say they just don't know what happened for them to be that way.
I agree with this.
Speaking generally, many people seem surprised that so many men ignore boundaries, have issues with consent, feel entitled to take over spaces or dominate spaces, feel entitled to tell women to get over their feelings of being uncomfortable.

But then they don't seem to connect the dots between the behaviour, conduct and standards they set for their boys e.g. it's fine for boys to 'tease' girls, it's fine for boys to dominate play, it's fine for boys to physically take over more space and claim more space in play spaces, it's fine for boys to be in female single sex spaces beyond their younger years and their female pre-teen peers should accept it, it's the role of female peers to turn away or modify their changing if they're not happy about a male peer in their space etc.

The male pattern behaviours many people rightly have an issue with (including the behaviour patterns that lead to issues in male single sex spaces) don't suddenly appear at 18.

We do our boys a disservice if we expect them to learn one set of values about respect, consent, privacy and dignity if our actions and words aren't modelling this.

To be honest @LolaSmiles while I understand your concern the sort of child that needs help to this level is really unlikely to develop into the sort of man you describe.

I think sometimes it’s worth remembering who and what situation you are talking about.

@LolaSmiles

From my point of view I would have considered this situation an emergency.

This is to say going out with my DS is like going out with an unexploded bomb that is ticking.

You know he is liable to blow up - in a positive or negative way - depending on environmental stimuli, and you try to keep everything on an even keel to avoid either major hyperactivity and excitement or extreme distress.

The change in OP’s son’s routine in terms of not being able to access his normal changing space + the sensory issues with being dripping wet + sensory/stress issues with queuing all equals to me 💥💥💥

So I would have been doing the same as OP looking for the quietest available space to get the kids washed quickly and out of there.

Again, I am not saying it is acceptable for all boys under the age of 18 to be in women’s changing rooms. Not at all.

What I’ve said consistently, is that this is still a young child - not an adolescent, 2 months beyond the cut off point for him to be in a women’s changing room. And it was a situation brought about by the leisure centre bunging baby changes in disabled space. And not taking into account the huge number of classes going on and the pressure this would place on changing facilities.

To be clear, OP had picked a suitable leisure centre with facilities and used them before, but not at the time when so many classes were on - she didn’t anticipate her son’s space being taken away.

Mothers and fathers with babies are not disabled. They can perfectly well change their babies in the single sex space - provided the baby changers are moved to there.

If these people had not been cluttering up disabled space in the first place then OP and her son would not have been displaced.

Leisure centre is at fault. Not the OP.

He's still a male in a female space, it doesn't matter if he's the kindest male on the planet. We're still sending the message that males can enter female spaces. They can't.

To be honest, your ‘fannying about under a towel’ phrase wasn’t a lot better than @Theoriginalmrscillianmurphy saying getting your baps out.

My wife has emotional trauma and HS- what looks to you like ‘fannying around’ is actually her going through an enormous amount of stress, anxiety and pain in order to take her kids swimming (she has to wear a bra and a tshirt and shorts to swim so there is a lot of ‘fannying around’ getting it all on and off!)

Leisure centre is at fault. Not the OP.

Both are at fault.
Also, has OP ever asked the leisure centre to give her more support?

I feel for your wife. This is why access to family rooms is important too, so your wife can feel comfortable getting fully undressed in private.

I used to take six kids from infant upwards swimming and took them into the family rooms. We could all just get changed and I knew they were all contained and couldn't run out of the changing rooms. If a family room wasn't available, we stayed in the water waiting for an opening. It made it so much easier to have a private and contained space.

I was not referring to you specifically @sollenwir

I was pointing out that while men and women are very outspoken regarding their own space and need for it, they do not make space for disabled people nor advocate for them - despite them being 25% of the population.

If there was advocacy by able bodied on behalf of disabled people this would lead to stronger preservation of rights for all, but mostly there is complacency.

@sollenwir I think you are being bullish and tone deaf. This child may never have the capacity to do the things described, kindness is not what I was talking about. Honestly it’s excruciating reading the righteous drilling down on a mother of a disabled child who asked for help thinking about a situation she wanted to manage better. Grim. Carers are predominantly women. Untrained, unemployed and unappreciated women who do not choose their lives. You are not helping.

@sollenwir

She hasn’t needed to previously because facilities were available.

Following this experience at a busier time point (which was unexpected), I am sure she will seek support to prevent the same scenario happening again.

Needing and using reasonable adjustments isn’t ‘letting autism be an excuse’ ffs. No more than my using a wheelchair is letting not being able to walk’ be an excuse.

People tend to advocate for issues that they have a connection with. I advocate for disabled people all the time because I know disabled people. If disabled people are 25% of the population, that's a lot of aware people who can advocate for them.

I mean, I never advocate for people with MS because I don't know anyone with MS and aren't vested in that cause. Hopefully it stays that way. Yet plenty of people do and give their time to advocate for that.

You tagged me, why do that if you weren't referring to me?

If theres mixed changing rooms id have waited. But. My DGS age 12 has adhd autism etc. he couldn't change alone. He is similar mental age to a 7 year old. I take him in womens changing area but find a cubicle. Hes too at risk being younger than his years, he would just stand there forever. Was there cubicles in women's changing area?

Yes, my DD is keenly aware of time. She's very anxious and has to forward plan everything to the minute to feel more in control of the unpredictable world around her. Going swimming would involve lots of questions from her days in advance about timings and a lot of anxiety on the day about being ready on time.

The unexpected is what causes her stress and can trigger a meltdown. Boys in female changing areas for instance would be a good example.

They’re not more important than children. People on here would rather a child was in danger because some adult women might be ridiculous enough to think a pre pubescent child is a pervert.

It would be the same if she was a boy and had nowhere to go

So 9-10 year old you would have been quite happy to get changed in front of a boy the same age. Yeah right. I don't know any kids who would be happy with that.

Are you saying girl children are less important than boy children?

You are not helping either.
Forcing women to guve up their rights isn't the way forward to more understanding or provision of services for those with extra needs.
She should never have done this, there never was any valid reason to take a male into a female space.

She's not a boy. She's a girl, who should be entitled to using a female only space without boys in it.

Females are more important than males in female only spaces, a male child definitely is less important in this scenario.

@DoktorPeppa

I don’t doubt she can queue, so can I.

What I didn’t realise until I had an autistic child myself, and was following his accommodations, was that doing this had been putting more pressure on me, absorbing more energy and my capacity to cope with other things. So now if there is an opportunity to avoid a queue I do.

Regarding issues autistic people have gauging and tracking time, please see the link below or google it yourself.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/expert-opinion/autism-and-difficulty-gauging-time-strategies-common-challenge#:~:text=Some%20of%20these%20investigators%20have,to%20excel%20at%20time%20reproduction.

I sympathise because I do understand the issues but 12 is just getting too old no matter what. The centre needs to provide a private changing area. I can't imagine any centre would have a problem with that if you asked them when you arrived.

This still doesn't justify taking a male into a communal female only space.

That link literally also says

other researchers have found that time perception can be an area of strength for certain people on the spectrum. Some people affected by autism appear to excel at time reproduction

So again, sweeping statements about autistic people like they can't queue or understand time are not useful.