AIBU to take my son into the female changing room?

[JustKeepSwimmingAlong]

I’ve taken my kids swimming tonight, both have separate swimming lessons and I swam with one while the other had theirs. Eldest is male, 9 and has multiple additional needs including ADHD, ASD and some physical disabilities which means he struggles to change himself. Youngest is in nursery so can dress herself but does need supervision. We got out the pool and realised all the changing rooms were full. There were 8 classes on over multiple pools, as well as general swim on at the same time. There’s only two family/accessible changing rooms and the others are all individual. There were literal queues for the large changing rooms.
I then noticed people going out of the group change. I’ve not used it before, but there was a male and a female changing room, so we went in the females. There was no one in it so started laying out the kids clothes and getting them to shower. Got them out the showers and started to get them dressed and people started coming in. There were a couple of mums with young girls and boys, and then a teenager looking girl came in by herself. She immediately came over to tell me that we were in the female room. I explained my son needed help getting changed and the changing rooms were full, but this room had been empty so we’d used it rather than standing wet and cold waiting for a changing room.
We were nearly Finished and my son was fully dressed when she arrived. He sat next to me, facing the wall and we left within a few minutes. During this time, she did get changed, so we didn’t delay her. Now I’m wondering if I was unreasonable?
I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, but I really don’t know what else I could have done in the situation? There’s too many classes and too few changing rooms, and we need a larger/accessible one, but they’re the only ones with baby change so they’re really
Popular. The lessons are every week so now I’m wondering what I can do next week? Would I be unreasonable to keep using the group change if there are no other options available?

The other poster chiming in with you accused me of posting on 'trans threads', go and check my post history, I have never done that so the only gaslighting is coming from your side - both of you are driving your own agendas here. Calling them 'transgenders' is hardly respectful so don't use them as a shield for your utter nonsense.

The question you’re poking at is what do you define as a woman, which is the remit of all the trans threads but is a moot point here. This is about biological male children, who identify as biological males, and whether or not they should be entitled to access female spaces with their mum. There is no debate about whether or not this boy is a “woman” and should therefore have access to female spaces

That's fundamentally not true. The entire premise of the gender critical movement is that it matters not how one identifies and therefore there is absolutely no difference between a man who identifies as a man and a man who identifies as a woman. The same single argument is exactly thus - males do not belong in female spaces.

I'll reiterate again, I have never stated my position against this statement and the "trans debate" on this thread as it is not about that. But I don't see how people cannot see the clear influence of the large gender critical presence on MN, and yes to me it is very unnecessary to use such rhetoric on this thread.

Why do I think that when "it doesn't matter what the bloody reason is"? I just find the entire way trans women are spoken about by gender critical people dehumanising and then when you hear the same lines being said toward a 9 year old child with SEN who has no agency in the situation. It feels wrong and cruel and I am entitled to my opinion just as everyone else is.

@Leah5678
Again, how do we say it without saying “no boys in female spaces.”

How would you word it to avoid using any of the words used in the trans debate?

This is about a woman taking an actual real live boy into the female changing. We are saying no, you can’t take a boy into the female changing. And yes, that is also said on trans discussions but how else is it meant to be said?

Is it now just completely invalid because it may or may not be applied in the trans debate? Are we just no longer allowed to tell people that their older sons cannot come in? Because we have to use the same words as other debates?

Yes, I agree with this.

There are a number of women who need to be able to get changed in an area which is guaranteed to be free from male strangers.

Their needs trump the feelings of women who don't mind getting changed in the presence of male strangers, but don't actually need to get changed in the presence of male strangers.

As long as there are any women who aren't OK with male people in their changing spaces, there should be no male people in women's changing spaces.

The only people who actually need to get changed in the presence of someone of the opposite sex are those who are either caring for or being cared for by someone of the opposite sex, i.e. not a stranger. Those people need family changing spaces and/or accessible changing spaces.

@SnowflakeSparkles

So how would you say that he is too old and no older boys should be allowed in the female changing rooms? What wording would make that a valid point, even if you disagree with the point, if this were debate class and you were tasked with arguing this side, what wording would you use?

Boys should not be in the women’s changing room. A teenage girl had to speak up because she was confronted with a boy sitting there, in her safe space to be naked. There he was.

What wording are we allowed to use to say he shouldn’t be there?

I think it's actually worse than that, because here we are discussing the reasons why a 9 year old boy shouldn't be in the women's changing rooms but nobody is claiming that the 9 year old in question isn't a boy.

So we could, and most likely do, end up with a scenario where a 9 year old boy with additional needs is not allowed to get changed in the women's changing rooms with his mother, but a male of any age without any particular additional needs who believes they identify as female is allowed into those spaces, simply by saying that they are not a boy/man.

As I said above, the rule should be no males above a certain age in women's spaces for any reason whatsoever, and people with particular needs should be provided for, e.g. there should be enough family rooms where male children can get changed with their mothers.

@Leah5678

Youre continuing to go on about the language you disagree with but refuse or answer what language should be used.

What language can we use to say that boys should not be sitting where young girls and women are naked?

Exactly this 👏

Can you not say "terf threads" please?

I think you did your best @JustKeepSwimmingAlong the criticism of mothers behaviour and choices is always a burden but it is so much worse when your child is disabled. Any Tom Dick or Harry, will have a tip and opinion they’d like to share. My child was two when someone first had the bright idea to ask if we’d ever thought about what would happen when we couldn’t care for him any more. TWO. Such gems as “well he’ll have to learn to dress himself eventually” or the colossally helpful “he’ll eat when he’s hungry” or “have you tried a bedtime routine” come thick and fast. At around nine or ten chubby cheeks and a beaming smile disappear and suddenly you aren’t welcome at playgrounds and soft play or in the baby section in toy shops. People don’t smile when you play or try to sit on their lap with a book. Overnight everything changes and parents watch their child who is baffled and hurt and try to explain the inexplicable.

You must make sure he isn’t in the female changing areas. Keep him safe and know that there are many many people who will help if they can.

People frequently suggest that we should stay at home because accommodating us is too awkward.

Because you're an adult. I would have been mortified as a child if there was a boy of my own age somewhere where he could see me naked.

Really selfish OP.

I mean you could just take the situation at face value, note that at perhaps the age of 9 years old mum has only just realised he no longer fits in the little child category and acknowledge there's no need to say things that you don't even realise sound weird and disjointed outside of the familiar ground of FWR discussions of "no males in female spaces".

For the record I definitely do not think you should stay home. Personally as I said in a previous post - if I was queuing for a family room I'd happily let OP go before me, and I think OP should ask if they can hold a room for her after the time of her son's lesson so they can guarantee there is one available. I don't like that OP didn't even think to ask staff if there was an alternative private space for her to use before taking her son into the women's changing rooms. I would absolutely call for more accommodations for disabled families such as this, but not at the cost of making women's facilities mixed I'm afraid - the pool centre was responsible for accommodating OP, not a teenage girl who was uncomfortable

@SnowflakeSparkles

It clearly did need to be said. The OP was asked by the teenager to leave and she didn’t leave. People in this thread are happily and loudly cheering that they take their older boys in the women’s changing room, where girls the same age as the boys will be changing and shouldn’t have to stand naked in front of their peers.

It does need to be said when so many mothers of boys seem to think their boys trump women and young girl’s rights to privacy.

So how would you say that he is too old and no older boys should be allowed in the female changing rooms?

This phrase is completely fine, no?

Do phrases like "males do not belong in single sex spaces" sound a bit different to you, even though it has the same essential meaning?

Snowflake and Leah

Why are you insisting on bringing this thread back to the trans debate.
It's irrelevant.

It is a discussion about older children going into changing rooms of the opposite sex and has become more broadly a very interesting discussion on facilities, accessible facilities, alternatives to removing single sex spaces.

A lot of posters with a range of views have been having an interesting discussion.

It's starting to seem like having continued to derail the thread from your original angle, you're now resorting to complaining that women discussing about this topic are using words like sex, single sex space, female, male to discuss a situation about single sex changing because on different threads about different topics words such as sex, female and male also are used.

It means the same thing...

Because people like you ignore phrasing like that and continue to say you will do as you please, which leads to sentences being boiled down to their shortest possible to hammer points, in this case the point is, “no boys in female spaces.”

What is so hard to understand? Keep your boys out of female spaces. The female space is not a catch-all when other spaces are busy/not great/not available exactly when and how you need. The female space is not your back up.

Seeing as Mumsnet deleted my comment I have to ask why this was a problem?
Genuinely didn't mean it in a rude way. I'm not anti t*rf. I am anti comparing a nine year old boy to an adult transgender though.

I honestly find it bizarre that you've gone into this thread that was not about trans issues, brought up trans issues, tried to contribute to a pile on with some utter idiot calling people TERFs/transphobes/accusing people of writing on threads they haven't, only to end up saying after all that you're not 'anti TERF!' What is the bloody point? I think you'd find a lot of transwomen would not want to be changing in front of 9 year old boys either, and they do not refer to themselves as 'transgenders' so there is really no point trying to hide your nonsensical waffle behind trans people. It has no place in this thread whatsoever.

Genuinely didn't mean it in a rude way. I'm not anti trf. I am anti comparing a nine year old boy to an adult transgender though.

Nobody did compare the 9 year old boy to a trans adult until you and SnowflakeSnore rocked up! Honestly are you alright??

Well that's just a lie and attempt to justify your behaviour when its called out that you are being shitty and offensive.

My very first post to the OP was sympathetic and understanding but advised her to not use the female changing rooms with her son. So a completely false and baseless answer. You know you've been called out and are getting irate. Why can't you just reflect on that and change your attitude instead of trying to make everyone else out to be the bad guy.

There are a couple of reasons.

Firstly, the word is generally used as a misogynistic slur about women who believe we have the right to our own terminology and our own single sex spaces and sports which shouldn't be appropriated by male people.

I hope it's OK to post this link here - trigger warning for threats of violence - but the website below shows how the word is frequently used, and by whom.

www.terfisaslur.com

In many countries such as the US, the fear of being called a TERF is so great among people of a more liberal political persuasion that even the threat of the word is a very effective way of silencing women who might otherwise wish to speak up about their own rights.

Secondly, it's just not accurate.

Gender critical feminists, i.e. the group commonly labelled "TERFs" are not trans exclusionary at all. On the contrary, because we don't recognise the legitimacy of gender as a way to label people or organise society and because we believe that what makes someone a woman is a question of biology and not identity, we believe that feminism should and does include trans men and non binary people who were born female.

The thread was about trans issues long before I bluntly pointed out the elephant in the room. You were just hiding your lack of nuance behind thinly veiled comments.

No where did I actually voice my opinion on transgenders or t**fs, just pointed out the same hyperbole is being used 🤷🏻‍♀️
When it really isn't relevant can you not see the difference between a nine year old autistic boy and an adult transgender?

Continue to use thinly veiled comments and gaslight anyone who points out the obvious though