AIBU to take my son into the female changing room?

[JustKeepSwimmingAlong]

I’ve taken my kids swimming tonight, both have separate swimming lessons and I swam with one while the other had theirs. Eldest is male, 9 and has multiple additional needs including ADHD, ASD and some physical disabilities which means he struggles to change himself. Youngest is in nursery so can dress herself but does need supervision. We got out the pool and realised all the changing rooms were full. There were 8 classes on over multiple pools, as well as general swim on at the same time. There’s only two family/accessible changing rooms and the others are all individual. There were literal queues for the large changing rooms.
I then noticed people going out of the group change. I’ve not used it before, but there was a male and a female changing room, so we went in the females. There was no one in it so started laying out the kids clothes and getting them to shower. Got them out the showers and started to get them dressed and people started coming in. There were a couple of mums with young girls and boys, and then a teenager looking girl came in by herself. She immediately came over to tell me that we were in the female room. I explained my son needed help getting changed and the changing rooms were full, but this room had been empty so we’d used it rather than standing wet and cold waiting for a changing room.
We were nearly Finished and my son was fully dressed when she arrived. He sat next to me, facing the wall and we left within a few minutes. During this time, she did get changed, so we didn’t delay her. Now I’m wondering if I was unreasonable?
I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, but I really don’t know what else I could have done in the situation? There’s too many classes and too few changing rooms, and we need a larger/accessible one, but they’re the only ones with baby change so they’re really
Popular. The lessons are every week so now I’m wondering what I can do next week? Would I be unreasonable to keep using the group change if there are no other options available?

Nothing to add much as not sure what's right. But, well done that girl for speaking out, only 14 and already taking no shit!

The safety of a male child, over the allowed age, doesn't come first in a female only changing area.

Apparently there’s an unwritten rule that means it would have been fine two months ago when he was 8, but isn’t now he’s 9.

Rules are usually either 8 and under, or under 8, so 8 would be borderline, probably still okay if he looked younger, but the age at which you'd be considering options if disability means the child was still not ready to go in the correct sex facilities.

It really was not that difficult. It was easy to anticipate and there were easy solutions that did not involve invading female spaces.

It's actually a written rule btw, not an unwritten rule. For all we know it's actually 7 not 8 at your pool.

That’s probably because you have a four year old. When your children are teenagers I can assure you that a nine year old looks like a very small child, and certainly not a threat.

There are some very entrenched views on here and the same old hectoring opinions are drowning out the very real dilemma many women face caring for their children. While I fully appreciate that some have very recently woken up to their rights being eroded/impinged and want to zealously defend the attitudes they are now sure are right and support the cause, it lacks nuance and it’s clear there is very little understanding of disability or disabled peoples rights, which are more extensive that non disabled peoples for this very reason. Reasonable adjustments are not made by hard boundaries and inclusion is not tolerating the presence of disabled people within your space but reaching out over the constraints (sometimes to your own disadvantage) to allow disabled people a place in the world. It isn’t and has never been an option to exclude in the “well you’ll just have to stay home” way that’s been suggested up thread.
@JustKeepSwimmingAlong it’s really hard. Take up space. Be polite and respectful but don’t let people push you back into your home.

Female carers and disabled people are the canaries of our society. How you treat them shows who you are.

"That’s probably because you have a four year old. When your children are teenagers I can assure you that a nine year old looks like a very small child, and certainly not a threat"

My 'kids' are all adults. That hasn't mysteriously transformed a 9 year old boy into a very small child. It's within the normal range of the start of puberty for boys (9-14), which is probably why it was chosen as a cut off age at some point in the past. It's also within the normal range of puberty for girls, who wouldn't want their male classmates to see them getting changed.

I don't remember seeing posts about 9 year olds being a threat, but it's a long thread so perhaps I missed it.

@TomeTome I have a teen also

What I think this thread illustrates above all is a clear and compelling need for third spaces, in addition to single sex spaces, as standard.

I get that this would be costly, and I also get that this is the UK and space is not at a premium. The problem with solely mixed sex facilities is that instances of sexual assault have noticeably increased since 'changing villages' became more common. These statistics are easily Googleable.

The problem is - surprise surprise - men. Women are not the ones doing the assaulting in changing rooms. And assault is depressingly common. Which is why I believe that as parents we do have a duty to teach our sons proper boundaries.

Of course OP's son is precious. So is mine, to me. So are other people's daughters.

As mother to a son, the onus has been on me to work around this and to model the right response to my male child. I've taken him to swimming lessons at my gym from 3 months. The gym has only single sex changing facilities. Sending him alone into make changing facilities is a non-starter. So the solutions are: dad now takes him to his swimming lessons. And I've taken DS off my gym membership. If I want to take him swimming, I take him to a nearby public pool with mixed sex changing.

I would of course prefer to take him to my own private gym. But this is no longer an option. I've put this in writing to the gym, and spoken to them about it previously. They have 'no plans' to introduce mixed sex changing, and in any event I wouldn't want that to usurp the existing single sex facilities.

It's inconvenient, for sure. But when we live in a society which has prolific problems with women's boundaries being eroded by men, It hardly helps if we bring up our sons to have similar values.

It's particularly galling, given the effort I've made to maintain this stance, that my gym made the national media for allowing a trans 'woman' (with a large erection) to use the female changing area. Situations like this are why women's positions are hardening. Clearly, something's got to give. It should not automatically be assumed that that something will always be women. Frankly, we are tired of it.

How we treat females, by not expecting to bring males into their female only spaces (unless under strict guidance), also says a lot about who we are.

We do not improve things for disabled folk by eroding female rights.

@SerafinasGooseWhat I think this thread illustrates above all is a clear and compelling need for third spaces, in addition to single sex spaces, as standard. nope it illustrates that we need better facilities for disabled people. This situation is entirely caused by inadequate access for the disabled at this pool.

"What I think this thread illustrates above all is a clear and compelling need for third spaces, in addition to single sex spaces, as standard"

Yet this pool seems to have many different types of changing spaces. Op didn't want to queue for them.

An alternative could be to use the male changing room next time. After all, if it's okay for one harmless male to be in the female changing rooms perhaps men will feel the same about one harmless female in their changing rooms.

This particular situation is, yes. But this is also a much broader problem. There are many mothers disregarding the 7-YO age limit in the women's facilities: I see them every week.

Third spaces don't need to exclude better facilities for disabled people.

It sounds like more family rooms would just be taken over by families that don't need them. I would say it is better guidelines and signage that is needed to direct families with young children into the single sex group changing rooms and older opposite sex children into the correct sex facilities. This would leave family rooms free for families with older children with disabilities.

I understand the dilemma having an ASD child myself who I need to be with. But you need to respect women and girls need for privacy and dignity. He's 7 and I'm worried about when he's 8 and can't change in with me anymore. I would probably stop swimming if I couldn't wait for the family change (my boy couldn't wait).

It's very sad that the understanding isn't there for autistic people but if your son were to believe he's a girl he could enter the girls space no problem.

Absolutely the safety of a child DOES come first. This isn't about a child's safety though, it's about not wanting to wait for a changing room.

@Pipistrellus

Because a 9 year old autistic/adhd child with physical disability may be physically and psychologically more akin to a 4/5 year old in terms of development and needs.

When I go swimming as an adult, I can cope with seeing 7-10 year old boys in the female change.

When I used to go swimming at an 8 year old girl, 7-10 year old boys would fairly often be staring at my chest (early developer). Their mums were always distracted with younger children so they knew they could get away with it. On one occasion, a boy of about 10 (I think) reached out and grabbed me. My dad (who wasn't in the changing room, for obvious reasons) confronted his mum afterwards and she said I must be lying as her son was innocent and not remotely interested in girls' bodies.

I gave up swimming after that, until I was an adult. Despite that space being for me.

So now I'm very, very cautious about saying that because I, a grown adult, can cope, that a young girl can.

And I'm fully expecting to get my arse handed to me because when I posted this on the last thread on this topic, I was told by several posters that they'd accept what happened to me happening to other girls if it meant protecting boys. So much for feminism, eh!

The safety of this male child does not come before the females, including potentially also children/disabled children, in this female only space. There were other options to keep him safe which did not involve eroding female rights.

If they look 4/5 then there wouldn't be an issue as women would just see what they think is a young child and get on with changing. If they look their age then they are not a small child.

@PosterBoy An alternative could be to use the male changing room next time. After all, if it's okay for one harmless male to be in the female changing rooms perhaps men will feel the same about one harmless female in their changing rooms. How do you feel about the mothers and sisters of disabled boys being forced to change in the male changing rooms? Is that really inclusion or is it just a trite little sound bite about a situation you obviously have no experience of? Mothers and sisters of disabled boys are women too. Disadvantaged, usually exhausted excluded and overworked but female too. This is the coal face of feminism.

How do you feel about women in general being told that they just have to accept/adapt to males in their spaces?

@LaLoba

I find it fucking depressing that someone can’t give a family with a disabled CHILD 5 minutes in a changing room whenever the mother has explained the facility has not provided suitable accommodations.

That is what the girl did whenever the situation was explained and the boy faced the wall.

@Pipistrellus If they look 4/5 then there wouldn't be an issue as women would just see what they think is a young child and get on with changing. If they look their age then they are not a small child.. There wouldn’t be any perceived issue for the other women in the changing room but it is a big issue for the disabled child.

My disabled 9 year old is about 6 on development when it comes to social/physical things.