British or English?

[moijejoue]

DH is born in London. Both his parents were born in India They're all brown. I would have described DH as British Indian. DH says he isn't Indian, can't speak the language, has never been and doesn't know anything about it and is English.

My background is that I was born in Norfolk, parents born in England but both sets of grandparents were born in India. I'm brown. I've always called myself British and not English. DH says I've bought into the racism. And there needs to be a culture shift in seeing people who are non-white as English. And for example, brown people in Scotland call themselves Scottish and not British. And for how many more generations will my descendents call themselves British and not English.

We have a baby DC and I would have also described her as British and not English. He said we should raise her to say she is English. But I feel like that isn't right. AIBU?

When asked I've always said Scottish especially if I'm abroad 😏.

But they would be wrong, because if you'd been raised without any reference to the UK, not speaking English, not having been to Europe, your English 'heritage' would amount to nothing apart from the colour of your skin

Yes - I think there's often a disconnect between what people actually are and how they look/are perceived.

Also, for right or wrong, some nationalities/heritages are used as physical descriptors just as much as/more than referring to somebody's actual birth/residential status/nationality - and some of this is probably based in prejudice, even if not meant malignantly.

I remember in the news years ago, a company in Japan used an employee ID/security system, whereby people's facial features were scanned and verified. However, it had been programmed in such a way that anybody without 'traditional' Japanese features would flag up as an error or even an attempt to scam the system. Any Japanese-born employees, even those who had lived in the country their whole lives - but with e.g. a European or African heritage - were basically rejected as an impossibility/fraud.

Then again, I think it also makes a big difference on how multi-cultural a country is. Somewhere like the UK (except for the racist idiots) would naturally embrace the fact that a British person can be any colour or heritage; whereas in somewhere like China, Japan or Congo, you would stand out and likely be assumed to be a foreigner.

I think you are ignoring the culture and law of the country this person might have been born in. I talked about my white friends living in Japan earlier. Their children, born, raised in Japan do not have Japanese citizenship and it is/was very difficult/impossible for them to get it.

All you people who say you wouldn't say you're English to try and distance yourselves from racist idiots are just surrendering the term to racist idiots forever.

@pinkgown My ancestors came over with William the Conqueror and I think of myself as English. Don't know how many generations that is, but time-wise it's less than 1000 years 😁
So you have ancestors that came over with W the C. Their offspring and all subsequent offspring had children with presumably people who came from places other than W the C. You are not only of one set of ancestors

I agree with DH. You were both born in England so you're both English. Obvs you can choose to call yourself British if you prefer to, but I can't see the logic behind that.

Nope, Scotland has no official national anthem which the Scottish Government acknowledged. And has NO plans to formalise in legislation.

Official anthem for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is actually GSTK. None of them have an official anthem.

So, no, it's not offensive in the slightest to state the actual position in Constitutional Law. 🤦‍♂️

It might say "Nations", however its used informally in the screenshot.

In both domestic UK Law and international law, English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish are NOT nationalities.

That's the most significant aspect since it is law that formalises these things. Look inside your passport under Nationality. What do you see?

Never English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish since they're NOT nationalities. 🤦‍♂️

But they are regional identities since they are constituent parts of the United Kingdom itself.

You're continuing to talk about nations only in a sovereign sense. I'm not.
We disagree, that's fine, I'm not going to argue with you about it.

These ideas get bound up with assumed cultural identities too; England is multicultural as a reality but is that part of what people think of when they think England? I wouldn't want a list of cliches about what it is to be "English" but I think that explains the difference. Britain is something else we came up with as part of the empire and haven't lost yet. If the UK split into individual nations it would change again.

The Americans deal with this well because they say Italian American etc. But they weren't colonizers.

British for travel, English by temperament in my case.

The reason is special dispensation from FIFA in recognition of the historical fact that modern international football began within the UK itself. Nothing more than that.

As for rugby, one of the teams in Six Nations doesn't represent a country since it represents a geographical island which is why you don't officially see a National Flag for it on official tables, merchandise and so on. You see a non-political, non-national flag.

In short, it's never a good idea to try using sports to attempt to "prove" your argument when it isn't actually reflective of the reality. In this case, the constitutional reality. 🤷‍♂️

No wonder the SNP gets so many votes. It's because of people like you

It IS the only thing that really matters and is actually the reality of the situation as per constitutional law.

Anything else is informal and doesn't carry the same clout with it.

Your and my passport really isn't lying. One Nationality and one regional identity is what we have in the UK. Very simple. 🤷‍♂️

When you have no factual argument left to make....🤦‍♂️

You might as well ask the SNP why they've not bothered to make "Flower Of Scotland" an official anthem in all these years! They've got the power to legislate for this and don't need to wait for independence to do it either.

Oh, and the Indy Bus wheels have gone all wonky, haven't they?

Scotland is as much a region of the UK as the other three are. Hence, independence is the SNP's goal and failing...🤦‍♂️

I would identify as British and European before English. My family is multicultural (I was born and raised here though) and unfortunately most "English" people that we've met tend to be insular and unadventurous. I can't really identify with people who've never been beyond Blackpool and think garlic mayo is the height of exotic foreign cuisine. I'm sure there are exceptions, this is my experience.

I don't support the SNP. They're appalling. Are you English? Why are you so het up about this?

Now if this were true the country would look very different. Think more about what you've said.

The Americans expanded massively after independence into the rest of continental United States.

So, yes, they were colonisers as well. They even annexed Hawaii.

No it doesn't

I stand corrected re the US! But I suppose Britain really did imperialism beyond any other nation before or since.

I didn't say you did. And my username is a really good clue I'm not English by any means.

If anyone is het up, it's yourself claiming offense and so on. Less projection perhaps? 🤷‍♂️

Yawn yes I corrected this if you read the thread. It is obviously possible to be both English (or Scottish or Welsh etc) AND British. Hth

What is your nationality? It would help me to know.

Hi OP, not sure if you're still reading :)

FWIW I'm white and born in Manchester and I usually tick 'White British' on forms. All grandparent are from England originally but I don't think of myself as English - I'm British, or I'm from the U.K. (Or I don't tick the box in a minor protest at big data, but that's another story...)

I don't ever need to do this but if I had to describe the ethnicity of my friends of similar backgrounds to you, I'd refer to them as being British with South Asian heritage.

I think you and your DH (and kids) are correct to call yourselves English if you want to, but that being British is not less-than, at least in my opinion.

Best wishes!

British, of course! 🤷‍♂️