I have quite strong views on prostitution

[Tonight1]

Not at all about the women, just that I would not want to date a habitual user! Or punter as they're called. And yes this came up recently.

This is discussion about how you would feel about it?

AIBU - wouldn't mind
YANBU - would mind

No, it's work. Work means that you agree to do some form of labour you otherwise probably wouldn't do in exchange for an agreed amount of money; I don't do my job out of altruism, and I suspect very few people do regardless of what that job is.

You might not do your job out of altruism. That's fair. But do you do your job out of trauma? Because if you removed from sex work, anyone who:

Was pimped
Was trafficked
Is addicted
Is mentally unwell
Has a PD
Was abused as a child
Has any other avenue to feed themselves and their children
Doesn't have a safe home
Was trauma-impacted
Is in an abusive relationship

You'd be left with almost no one. And those women would be paid extortionate amounts of money, eye-watering amounts. The ONLY reason you can get a blow job for a few quid is addiction. Some men are paying a lot but most aren't. And the reason is adverse childhood experiences, abuse and addiction.

Neatly, what that means is that abusive men are paving the way for more abusive men. Some men abuse children, some of those children go on to be abused by other men. The truth is that happy, healthy women, with no abuse in their pasts, and other options, typically don't take up sex work.

And men don't ask BTW. Men will tell you they 'check' but they don't. They don't know if the woman they are fucking has her passport, has to do it for the next fix, is beaten if she doesn't. They simply don't care. And if you gave them the option, statistically, to be treated in the same way as the woman they are doing it to, would they risk it? If you said, "scratch your itch, but if the woman is coerced, a man will come in after and coerce you. If she is addicted, someone will inject you with heroin. If she is trafficked, someone will come in and take you to Romania or Somalia and take your passport away. If she is raped, a man will come in and do the same to you." Would any man scratch his itch then? Of course not. And what that means is that they don't see the women as truly human.

No wouldn't date a man who even thought it was okay for them to exist. Nevermind use them
Nothing against the women really
Just the men who create the demand.

Thank goodness for your post @MrsTerryPratchett to counter the drivel about women making six figure sums and having a grand old time doing 'sex work' when your description is far and away the majority.

In an area of Leeds, the council experimented with making a legal red light zone. A woman was murdered in the trial period; they still went ahead with rolling it out. Schoolgirls in the area would be approached by punters in their uniform on the way home, mums with buggies would be offered money for time with their babies and toddlers. That's the reality of prostitution. Not some ridiculous fantasy of 'high class escorts'.

@MrsTerryPratchett
You're not giving women a lot of credit here... you really think that everyone who has had sex with her boss has been coerced, they're naive, and don't know what they're doing? Yes, there will be bosses who make the suggestion, but an equal number of women who do it consciously with an endgame. Same as all these yacht girls... Where is the line between a woman who approaches a (rich) man and having sex 'grudgingly' because they hope they'll get perks, and women who have a genuine interest? How is a man to know?

@TangerineNeonLight I've known so many women, and a few men, over the course of several decades. The reality is horrifying. And I KNOW the men see that. They just pretend not to, hoping that women not in the trade will be too stupid or uncaring to notice. But most of us actually care about other women.

How is a man to know?

Oh FFS. I can't be bothered. You just don't care about women. Don't bother pretending.

No it would very much turn me off if they had visited prostitutes in the past , even if they didn't do it any longer. It would be a massive turn off and give me the ick

I would not want to date a habitual user!

I wouldn't describe that as a strong view at all. I'd see it as strangely moderate. Only habitual users? I wouldn't want to go anywhere near any man who had ever in their life used a prostitute. I wouldn't be friends with them, never mind date them.

"How is a man to know?"

Poor lambs. All those conniving women laying traps for them. They never know how old women are either....

@TrishIsMySpiritAnimal

Again, I think you're not giving women enough credit... Why is a conscious choice for sex (for money), coercion? A woman who goes on OnlyFans, meeting up with guys etc, because she knows her body can make money is the same as a boxer. Both are decisions to risk your body/health for money.

"They're consenting to sex in exchange for money, otherwise they'd just have sex with a man. That's coercion. "... isn't it their right? It's their body. In legalised and regulated countries, women can walk away any time. How is this any different than say organ donation? It's your body, you can choose to go out and give your body (literally) to someone else in exchange for money. I'm missing the coercion part... A woman waking up and using her own energy to walk to that street corner is consenting.

Are you talking about prostitution in the real world or in some sort of 90s late night Channel 5 soft core erotica full of sexy secretaries in pencil skirts and low cut blouses? Are you trying to imply that all women are essentially prostitutes? Are you saying that because some women are 'yacht girls' and confuse men that others can't be expected to know that prostitutes are frequently trafficked, abused, addicted and traumatised? We know from Epstein and his ilk that plenty of glamourous-seeming young women who might have been considered to be willing hangers-on were in fact groomed, trafficked and coerced into sex acts they didn't consent to with far more powerful men, don't we? And do any of us believe that those men didn't know what was happening?

Excellent post @TangerineNeonLight - the concept that men deserve everything that they want, at the expense of women getting a rough deal, props up the patriarchy. Women are supposed to be utterly delighted at the thought of the tiniest scraps of attention from men and if they aren’t there’s a problem with that woman not the men who covet her

And 'legalised regulated countries' @C1N1C - look up Holbeck in Leeds. There was at least one woman who couldn't 'walk away any time' because she was murdered by a punter. The council still went ahead with rolling out their legal red light zone, and they made every woman and child in the area less safe. They couldn't all walk away either.

How is this any different than say organ donation?

Umm I wouldn't support desperate people being offered money for their organs either.

It's not philosophy, or sixth form debate class, it's actually abused women being further abused.

And I suggest @C1N1C reads #2 on here. nordicmodelnow.org/2021/09/18/the-nordic-model-of-prostitution-a-change-in-perspective-in-protection-of-human-dignity/

I don't suggest anyone else does if they are trauma-impacted at all.

Legalised prostitution isn't nice and safe and a bastion of choice.

I haven't read the thread I will do. But my first instinct is that your views are totally normal and very uncontroversial.

If a woman is sleeping with her boss because it’s the ONLY way she will get ahead in the organisation - as opposed to a male colleague he doesn’t want to sleep with - that’s coercion 100%. And coercion is not consensual.

Id really like you to answer the question about the stepdad that I asked. The 18yo stepdaughter had an endgame of not being kicked out the house. It’s the same right? That’s ok for the stepdad to do because she’s willing to tolerate it for her own gains? Right?

No, the ones not giving women enough credit is men. By coercing them into sex using money they are treating them like a body part not a human. I want women to be treated as humans.

Can you tell me when a boxer ever risks being brutally raped or murdered when they step into the ring?

Organ donation for money is illegal. Why do you think that is? Have a long hard think.

A woman waking up and using her own energy to walk to that street corner is consenting.

What about trafficked women? Do you really think using your own legs to go somewhere = consenting to a dangerous misogynistic profession?

I think people are misrepresenting what I'm saying. I've said above numerous times that I'm against prostitution. Trafficking, rape, violence... all wrong. BUT I do think women (everyone) should have the right over their own body. If a man with big biceps wants to make money by punching others, go for it. If someone with a nice voice wants to become a singer, fine. If a woman (or man!) thinks people will pay good money for sex with them, they should have that right. It's their body. I actually think people should have the right to suicide too... it's crazy how you don't have the ultimate right over your own body, but that's another conversation!
But I become against prostitution, porn and OnlyFans etc when there IS coercion of any kind, absolutely.

But truth be told, the bit i don't get are the man-haters above who think the 'yacht girls' are being coerced and that it's the man's fault. I'm open to the explanation there... A woman chooses to get on that yacht. She's often dressed provocatively and knows full-well the man will probably be attracted to her and will probably be interested in sex. If the man traps her on the yacht, he's a rapist, but if she engages in sex with that man with the hope he might keep her around and buy her stuff (consensual aex for downstream money)... I fail to see why he is at fault.

man-haters?

Reported. You let the mask slip just a little too much.

@C1N1C not going to answer the stepdad question then.

Youve tripped yourself up - women aren’t ‘doing what they want with their bodies’ re prostitution - MEN are doing what they want with her body

I don't really know why you brought yacht girls into the conversation, @C1N1C , but it feels like it comes from a woman-hating perspective.

Out of interest, do you think Epstein's victims were there of their own free will?

@MrsTerryPratchett
No mask... not sure why that's reportable either. Just relating it to the yacht girl comment that a woman can voluntarily go on the boat, willingly consent to sex and it somehow be his fault as she's being somehow 'coerced'.I was actually seeking an explanation, as the comment seemed to have an agenda.

I appreciate everyone has different views, but I'm happy to be educated... I realise it's a touchy subject.

"Man haters" is such a "tell". Anybody who is unhappy with the way some men relate to women is called a "man hater" in an attempt to minimise and silence her concerns.

@TrishIsMySpiritAnimal

And apologies for missing that... I've probably missed a lot of comments (I have about ten people replying!)

I'm not trying to be a dick/troll (promise), the questions/comments are (you might have noticed), more out of a naivety but also genuine curiosity, and I AM happy to be educated if I'm wrong.

As for your comment about the step dad, absolutely wrong, (for those who missed it, a girl willingly engaging in sex with a stepdad to secure a roof over her head)... I would absolutely call that coercion. I would liken this to Epstein, as those women's careers depended on providing sex.