To ask if anyone still thinks Brexit was a good idea?

[KimberleyClark]

Genuinely curious. I can't see how it has improved things at all.

YANBU - Brexit was a terrible idea
YABU - it was a great idea

And we don't need to be in EU to have environmental protection, or social justice or employment protection, we can legislation for any area we want to.

The disdain is on both sides e.g. Remoaners vs Brexshiters but fwiw, 17.4m out of 46m is NOT the will of the people, anymore than if Remain had won by the same margin, it just means that on that particular day a majority of those who voted, voted for Leave.

Bottom line is the older you were, the more likely you'd vote for Brexit, older people are dying, younger people come of age and don't support Brexit, people see the disadvantages, the polling is very clear but it is only a poll.

Its not wrong to vote again and again and again, we have had 2 GE's since the referendum, 3 within 10 years.

Democracy is about changing ones opinion.

On environmental protections etc yes we can do it ourselves (as we always could) but we aren't we are going the opposite way and cannot change it.

@ClareBlue And I predict the protection that the UK will receive on 'environmental protection, social justice or employment protection' will get worse not better due to not being in the EU unless you can signpost me to an article that this has got better since we left or will in the near future

fwiw, 17.4m out of 46m is NOT the will of the people,

And that's your problem right there. It wasn't "17.4 out of 46" it was actually 17.4 out of the population of the UK - call it 65m. Because as we have seen Brexit has fallen hard on people who had no say, but are now most affected by it. The same could be said of general elections, only they get revisited every 5 years.

Yet another reason why a supermajority should have been required.

@ClareBlue
I do not have disdain for the people who voted Leave as they were LIED to, also the Leave campaign broke electoral law.

I have no doubt that some of the 52% genuinely didn't like the EU and wanted to get out of it ASAP - Probably a small %, equally a small % of die-hard remainers.

There were hundreds of thousands of people that would have voted leave in good faith due to the lies that were spouted:

• oven ready deal
• Turkey joining
• £££££s on the side of the bus
• More money to the NHS
• European Army
• Reduced immigration (it has increased since Brexit due to non-EU immigrants)
• Brexit does not mean the UK will leave the single market
• We can take back control of UK water, set our own fishing policies, support our fishermen
• ................................................

I don't think the Leave voters were stupid, I think they were LIED as has been proven to be the case.

Democracy doesn't stop after a referendum though, does it? This 'will of the people' crap suggests that just because dom cummings' lies got brexit over the line, it needs to stay that way for all eternity.

It was an advisory referendum that should have had a super majority. The illegal Cambridge analytica stuff could easily have swung a few % that changed the result. Plus polls have been pro remain ever since.

Brexit is stupid. The politicians who argued for it had no plan on how to deliver it, so how could the people who voted for it know either?

And as for all the domestic violence comparisons, give me a break - we had rebates, vetoes, very favourable terms. It doesn't make sense to frame the UK as so mighty we need to be independent, yet cowed by the EU because we're so weak. Are we powerful or not?

Democracy doesn't stop after a referendum though, does it? This 'will of the people' crap suggests that just because dom cummings' lies got brexit over the line, it needs to stay that way for all eternity.

I was told repeatedly in 2017 - and 2019 - that I had to vote Tory to "respect the referendum".

We could have exceeded EU protections within the EU, they were a minimum not a maximum. Leaving only facilitates a dilution of standards and weakening of protections.

Because the people who bankrolled brexit don't believe in silly stuff like benefits, mat leave, environmental law. They're libertarians who think that stuff is for softies.

Not “softies”. People who don’t think about the longer term consequences or costs of their actions, particularly on those who are poorer already.

Regulation increases costs in all areas. Poor people suffer most. Remainers should think about that. The libertarians have thought about it.

Yeah, because it's not the poor people living in flood-prone areas, doing the shitty dangerous jobs, and exposed to the worst pollution. FFS. TAM.

@Fifteenth
Yeah those pesky health and safety laws and high food standards (to name but 2) - they really oppress the working class.

FFS, read what you've posted and engage critical thinking.

Those that bankrolled the leave campaign don't give a shit about the working class. It's all about how they can make more profits with less red tape (by lowering standards)

Govt is expensive. The more we carry, the poorer we get. Who do you think suffers most.

I can’t speak for others. But when people identify and advocate for something that makes us all better off, it’s likely they believe it.

You can’t pretend not to see that richer countries have lower regulation. And countries who grow their Govts too far become poorer.

Which richer countries have lower regulation and a high standard of living for the least well off in society?

@Fifteenth please just read your posts. You are not making sense.

Just Google richest countries in the world - some will be in the EU (that all pay to be in it), some will be authoritarian states, some will be democracies. 'Richer countries have less regulation' is just false.

You are conflating the cost of effective government with our government, (which should have rigorous scrutiny) & the cost of the EU.

I can’t speak for others. But when people identify and advocate for something that makes us all better off, it’s likely they believe
Again you were told lies

@DogInATent none at all that I know of- sweden Denmark, Switzerland, Germany, Norway- all have high standard of living (higher for some obviously) but have shit loads of regulation.

The strange thing is that somewhere like the US seems to have an awful lot of people pumping out the 'libertarian' model- I've always found it pretty regulated on many things when it comes to taxation in particular - taxes on everything and it's mother, lots and lots of public service jobs and certainly not low cost and you actually don't get much for your tax dollar either.

The Americans I met in Denmark felt it was a better deal paying more tax but getting much more covered off for it- health, cheap childcare, good public transport,

The libertarian model is all well and good if you are doing ok- not so great when anything at all goes wrong and is an incredibly selfish model too

No longer part of the European federal experiment. Democratic accountability. Self governance. Independent foreign policy. Less limited parochial outlook and a wider global view.

Democratic accountability?? We always had that- maybe your moniker matches your outlook !

@Crikeyalmighty in my opinion this lack of engagement with opposing views contributed to the loss of the brexit vote in the first place. The UK electorate had no powers to oust foreign MEPs or EU officials and were therefore not accountable to us. Unfortunately, many rejoiners labour under the illusion that the EU is a perfect organisation and represents all that is good in the world, and that critics are either stupid, racist or both.

@Everanewbie no they don’t. Sorry to get upset about this but I think the EU was highly imperfect and yet still better than nothing. There was actually more democratic accountability within the EU structure than there is within our own government. Can you think of a single incident of democracy triumphant in our country (countries? Never sure how to describe the UK but Wales, Scotland and NI have even less power than England) apart from the Brexit vote in the past twenty years? We get titbits thrown to us occasionally - gay marriage etc - when we can get the press on our side and mostly when we take extra-democratic measures like mass protest, which, oh look, is being cracked down on hard. Like the ability of citizens to vote a failing government out, which has already been removed by the FTPA. Of course the EU had many flaws - let’s go back to everyone’s favourite Winston Churchill and remember that he once said democracy was the least worst system of governance, NOT the best. But at least there were some adults restraining the full-grown brats who run our government. They wanted to let water companies discharge sewage in our rivers, the EU said no chance. Now look what’s happening.
In addition, they are piggybacking on this to try to get us out of the ECHR. Courts ARE a form of democratic accountability.

Who were the EU democratically accountable to? If it isn't the UK electorate, then it isn't democratically accountable. That's the point. People don't like the idea of someone making laws whom they cannot remove. I can't see why someone has more trust in a beaurocrat in Brussels that they cannot elect or remove, than their own MP. I can't see why a Dutch, French, German, Maltese or Irish MEP is the adult in the room, when for some reason our own elected representative is the child in the room? If a UK government makes decisions on a hypothetical bill that I disagree with, and I voted against, I can console myself that a greater proportion of people in my town and by extension, country, wanted this person with these views. Its less palatable when I oppose it, our politicians oppose it, but people from another country want it so its imposed on us.

Would your view be different if the party in power in the UK were more aligned to you ideologically? Are they still the child in the room who need a grown up German or Spaniard holding their hand?

For what it is worth I was a remainer, now an accepter. My thoughts were that the treaties, directives, legislation etc. were so ingrained an integrated that Brexit wasn't worth the hassle. But the sovereignty argument is one I have great sympathy for.

All in all, Brexit is down to EU mission creep where a trade block snowballed into greater and greater degrees of federal political and legislative union. That is where many drew the line.

All right - why should it be the UK electorate? Why should this specific bit of land, or Germany or Spain for that matter, be the HUGE number of people who determine democratic decisions? Do we get any input on what the government do day to day (the answer is a categorical no)? Is it possible to ensure true democratic participation when tens of millions of people are involved? Democracy was designed in Athens, a comparatively tiny city-state where the elite could be roped in to every decision. I’d rather have the EU, however imperfect, having the final call on some - not all, just some - decisions than let our elected elite rip.

And yes, if Labour or the Greens were in power, I’d welcome a safeguard. International law is fairly ineffectual anyway but at least there was someone out there deciding on floors for execrable behaviour, whatever their nationality.

Also, it’s trade bloc for next time.

Thanks for the correction, duly noted.

So you'd like to see a world government? Or just a European government? Or perhaps a UK government when its a party that you agree with, but then cede control back to Brussels once your approved party loses?

You seem to hold continental Europe in much higher esteem than the UK, but I'm afraid that power hungry, corrupt politicians that work out of self interest are just as prevalent out in the continent. If not, more so, look at Italy for example. I'd rather keep the power to evict in the UK and I want our laws to be for our benefit, first and foremost, while being responsible neighbours and trading partners at the same time.

People don't like the idea of someone making laws whom they cannot remove.

Ah, you mean the house of lords !