To ask if anyone still thinks Brexit was a good idea?

[KimberleyClark]

Genuinely curious. I can't see how it has improved things at all.

YANBU - Brexit was a terrible idea
YABU - it was a great idea

Wow, didn't know this. Going to defo read later when have a moment.

Being a net recipient is part of the ethos of the EU. Bring the lower performing economies UP with good use of the funds, and then when they are UP, they become net contributors, helping the next country that needs it.

Ireland has used it's EU funding very well, it it booming at the moment from what I read. Good on that country, and it seems to have an outward looking optimistic view of the world. Its education system is very good, which is why there are so many tech, scientific and pharma companies there, amongst others. OK I understand that there is a tightening of belts in some sectors right now, but the low CT rate will keep them here. Intel being one example of a company that has invested vast amounts in its Irish campus.

I am so envious of them. But I can go and live there and use its services anytime due to the CTA. Might just do that some day. I can't do the same in the wider EU though unless I get a visa to work there.

Sorry to quote you again @OpenLanes, but this idea of guessing things rather than taking the time to learn things is a significant contribution the problems in the UK today.

The government sent the money to the EU and the EU handed back pocket money to fund it and kept the rest.

Honestly, that response deserves complete derision. Do you not understand that the surplus that according to you "the EU kept" was used as funding for other less well off members of the EU with a view to bringing them up to similar standards as the UK (at that time).

I'm afraid your response demonstrates the ease with which those who voted for Brexit were indoctrinated. Maybe they were incapable of critical thinking and were only capable of swallowing the latest propaganda from UKIP and the ERG.

You re ignoring the free trade, the EU organisations we were part of, Horizon (which we now had to pay into to rejoin) Eurotom, Erasmus, Europol, various EU criminal databases.

Tackling crime for the UK police forces has got harder now and business has had to pay billions in extra charges and paperwork, billions that they passed on to the consumer & we still have to abide by EU rules on trade as we import/export to Europe.

The UK of course still expected to still get all of these for free after Brexit lol!

There was a very good reason Thatcher was a fan of the Single Market, she even helped design it.

As if anyone who is genuinely interested in knowing the response would ask on MN 🙄

When it falls apart, we will be outside it.

As a moral principle, Govt should cover the smallest feasible geographic area. We should not have continent wide or global Govt.

if there is nowhere to run, Govt can do what it likes.

In a milder way, Govts should compete. People should have other examples and be able to say “look, what they are doing in France works better”. That doesn’t happen with continent wide standardisation. And it’s important.

Also politicians won’t be able to lie and say “It’s Europe” when they do unpopular things.

This 👆to me the kind of people who are happy about Brexit will be totally supporting Sunak to change our laws in order to send asylum seekers to Rwanda.

Ireland dropped it's corporation tax levels so all the american silicon valleys are there, making billions and paying the least tax they can - 1t was 12.5% in Ireland I think - ours was 20+ (can't be arsed to look it up but if you are interested you can ) - They are being forced to raise it as eg France has lots of eg amazon users but Ireland is getting the tax revenue. Good on ireland but it was due to undercutting other countries rather than their hard work or anything else.

OP - do you really expect an analysis of economic and social changes with a nuanced dissection of how things are/ were /could have been? Are you looking for figures? Or examples? Or anecdotes? (Which you dismiss if they don't say the same as you).

Or do you want lots of people to come on to the thread - like all the other threads on the same subject - and say "Yeah it's a shit show and the half population who voted differently from me are all thick racists" (smug, smug).

If you really want to know there are better places to do your research, (including in Sweden, France, Germany, Hungary, Ireland, Italy etc etc)

I campaigned for Remain and watched the pre-Brexit process with increasing horror. IMO it was a bad idea, badly executed, and increasing numbers of people are expressing that view in polls etc, but constantly going back to it is not really helpful any more. It’s done. The same reason people voted remain because the remain campaign was crap or they hated Cameron or they thought they were being patronised when someone told them leaving was a shit idea is the same reason that constantly telling them “I told you so” or “oh look I was right” will alienate them further. We need to look forward and focus on untangling the massive mess that’s been created.

Well critical thinking would surely tell you that “funding for other less well off members of the EU with a view to bringing them up to similar standards as the UK “ means we keep ALL the money.

We were the third largest contributor. That was lots of countries being bought up to standard.
Now Covid is done it is gradually sorting itself out. Spain and France both heading towards relaxing visas etc. Trade is was thing. A federalised Europe was never going to be great for the U.K.

Well we ve had decades of EEC/EU and yet all the EU countries are different, they have their own transport, health & education systems, still have their own national traditions,
Italy keeps having GE/new PMs, though recently we matched or even beat them on that score - competitive govt i guess.

We have never had continental wide govt, not even close.

& the only standardisation is in min safety standards and some goods/trade, the UK has kept miles, driving on the left and its electrical earthing systems - German has it own speed limits and the French have the TdF !!!

Politicians will lie and blame something other than themselves or their policies, look how we blame Ukraine for price rises, ignoring the huge profits supermarkets and others are making?

@lightisnotwhite Our net £12bn contribution would run the NHS around ONE month, true, still a lot of money but look what we got for that, just in terms of trade, we are now paying in billions for Horizon - 2.6 billion just for that.

Nobody has really discussed this point in detail. Does it suggest things aren't actually as bad as originally thought (it says UK economic growth was 'hugely underestimated') or are Germany and France just struggling for other reasons?

Underestimated as part of Project Fear.

Yes, but if you're measuring relative growth it's easier to achieve a higher figure if you crash the economy harder first. UK GDP has a lot more room to grow because it's inherently so shit to start with compared to the rest of Europe. Per capita GDP as an absolute figure, the UK lags far behind the leading EU nations and is lower than the Euro area as a whole.

We haven't overtaken anyone, we're still three laps behind. We're just starting to show some signs of catching up with a view to unlapping ourselves.

Personally, my life and career have improved since Brexit. Which is irrelevant to whether it was a good idea of not.

Rishi's "masterplan" was bringing David Cameron (who told us all Brexit was a terrible idea after offering it up on a platter in the first place) to sweep triumphantly back in,in the style of Boris and triumphantly tell us that he was right about Brexit, that he offered us unasked for but said was a mistake, that he is here to fix and usher in a period of sensible, boring rich people getting richer and making deals with the EU again.

Except multiple countries are thinking of leaving the EU and it was David's utter stupidity that caused all of this. The world is a very different place now, we have GB news, social media and huge disillusionment. David's triumphant return will be met with little more than raised eyebrows.

@DogInATent - absolutely right. The UK fell behind its competitors. We have a lot of work to do.

I have made more money from Brexit. But honestly I do not think the UK is overall better off in terms of investment or growth, and it is certainly not better run.

The Corporation Tax was criminally low in fairness. I think there is an EU minimum of 15% now?

But a big part of our attraction to Foreign Direct Investment is simply that we are in the EU. Cork is now the second largest English speaking city in the EU. Strange times we live in.

As said that isn't quite the truth. But at least the WC North saw money being spent on stuff that made life better.

I'm still very bitter that the public could decide this, but boaty mcboatface was apparently too big a decision and over ruled.

As a moral principle, Govt should cover the smallest feasible geographic area. We should not have continent wide or global Govt.

if there is nowhere to run, Govt can do what it likes.

In a milder way, Govts should compete. People should have other examples and be able to say “look, what they are doing in France works better”. That doesn’t happen with continent wide standardisation. And it’s important.

On the other hand, in your ideal model, for things that require a global approach, such as climate change, which is really important, no one can agree on what should be done. So nothing gets done.

@CaramacFiend @caringcarer @DogInATent

Did any of you read the link I posted above?

Here

Which shows that relative to many other countries, including the Eurozone, the UK is really not doing very well! Only Germany is performing worse than we are.

And these are the government's own figures, released yesterday.

I often wonder why the UK did not compete with Ireland on a CT tax level anyway. What stopped UK from undercutting the Irish 12.5% rate at the time?

I realise now that CT is somewhat harmonised within the EU, but it is still relatively low in Ireland, and in comparison to the US rate of 21%, 15% in Ireland is still very attractive to US multinationals.

I think that part of the difficulty is that neither side will ever concede they were wrong, even if it does start to look that way. Hell would literally freeze over before remainers would ever admit there were any benefits to Brexit.