To have expected dd to stay home?

[champagnetruffleshuffle]

No one in the family had plans this evening so DH and I decided to have a very rare evening out to the local cinema, leaving dd16 and ds13 at home. Dd16 came downstairs at dinner time saying she wants to go out to a neighbouring town and asked for a lift. We told her our plans and that the film didn't finish until 10.40 pm and we didn't want ds left on his own at home all evening.

We arrive home from the cinema to find ds on his own, dd had gone out at 9.45 pm to meet a local friend. She'd snap chatted me telling me whilst we were watching the film with our phones turned off. I turned my phone on when the film finished but my data was still off.

Ds is alright with being at home alone, but dh and I weren't happy as we'd be back quite late and weren't easily contactable.

I'm so cross with her right now. I know he was pretty safe but we made it clear we didn't want him left. AIBU? And wwyd?

YABU - 13 is old enough to be home alone, you can't exorcist 16yo to stay in on a Saturday night
YANBU - She went against our wishes and I'm right to be cross.

Same, well I wasn’t working full time but also out in pubs and clubs at 16. Times have changed and this is no longer possible. Cities and probably larger towns open clubs to under 18s. Our local park is very safe for example. If my 15 yo dd wants to hang out there next summer in the evenings with friends, I won’t have an issue. Other than that, it’s house parties.

I was in bed by 10 or maybe 1030 on a Fri at 16 as was gcse years and I wanted to do medicine

Ultimately you are responsible if your 13 year old needs supervision the you need to organise someone responsible and its clear your 16 year old is not that person. Of course your 16 year old should stay in when you've said they have to, but you'd be irresponsible if you left them in charge again.

Is this thread making anyone question their entire teen years?! I was expected as a matter of course to look after my younger brother, often overnight and it wasn't negotiable to say 'no'! It was like doing the dishes or cleaning my room: just part of being in the family. Everybody helped out. I'd love to have seen my mothers reaction if I told her that my brother wasn't my responsibility and for her to go and get a babysitter for him!

Another thing is that there is no way I'd be able to just tell my parents I was popping out at almost 10pm without getting the Spanish inquisition.

When I first read the post I was shocked that most posters thought the OP was BU. I find there is so much black amd white thinking on Mumsnet: 16 year not responsible for your childcare + 13 year old mature enough to stay home alone = YABU

I actually think there are a lot more nuanced levels to this discussion. It's about hoping that the older child will stay around so that you know for sure the younger one will be supported in any kind of worst case scenario event. It's thinking the situation is set up so that you can have a night off and relax without worrying, and then realising that that sense of safety wasn't real at all.

On mumsnet, once you're 18 you need to start paying rent and making regular familial contributions yet it's frowned upon to expect a 16 year old to hold back on her social activities for one night in order to support a parent. Being part of a family means everyone helping eachother sometimes and that comes at occasional sacrifice to one's preferred activities. As long as your teenage kids aren't roped into providing you regular childcare at the expense of their social development, I don't see anything wrong with expecting a 16 year old to help out the odd time.

No, a 13 year old doesn't need to be mollycoddled but there is a bit of a grey area in terms of their maturity, which I too would be conscious of if I thought they had been left alone. There is also a confidence issue around this age range where a 13 year old feels fine being home alone in the middle of the day but starts to feel anxious as the night draws in and the environment changes outside. My parents lived near a pub, and I remember drunk people knocking our door and shouting through the letterbox on their way past. This absolutely terrified me as a very young teen but I was able to laugh it off a few years later. If the electricity went off or I heard creaky noises in the attack I would have been scared aged 13, but not when I was a bit older. So while a 13 year old may be old enough to be alone for a few hours on a Saturday night, there may be some unexpected events that feel a bit scary if they are alone. As a mother, I would want to know my 13 year old had that emotional backup. As a 16 year old sibling, I would have wanted this for my brother too.

Both your 13 and 16 year old will be very aware that it is very very unusual for an NT 13 year old to not be able to be in the house in his own because he doesn't know what to do in an emergency.

Because of this, directing all your ire towards your 16 year old, when actually it is the 13 year olds 'fault' she couldn't go out, will cause resentment from her to him.

Address the problem, not the plaster.

Either he can do it and you baby him, which will immensely frustrate your 16 yr old as not being fair, or he can't and needs to be taught.

I think if you had asked her earlier in the week and she had said yes than you have a right to be upset - but deciding last minute you would go out and therefore you told her she needs to abandon her plans was very entitled and unfair of you. She is your child - not your employee. How would you feel if someone said right you need to abandon your plans because I have decided to do something and you therefore need to do X.
Unless your son has SEN needs I don't see any reason why he could not be alone for a few hours. It always amazes me that 13 year olds are OK to walk home from school where they have to be on full alert dodging cars pulling out of drives etc, crossing roads with unpredictable cars - but they can't sit quietly in their own home for an hour or two watching TV. I mean what do people think is going to happen to them.

It depends if you gave her specific instructions, but as teens mine were safer left alone on their own than together!

YABU. If you really think a thirteen year old needs a babysitter, pay for one, don't hamper your daughter's social life. I was babysitting other people's kids at his age though so it's unlikely to be necessary.

If you choose not to go out much that's on you; he's old enough to be left alone.

I think those saying the 16 yr old should help to contribute to family life are missing thinking from her perspective. Sure, if the sibling was 6 and actually needed it. But in her mind she will absolutely be thinking 'why the fuck should I miss my Saturday night to babysit Bob, he's fucking 13.'

But you didn't actually arrange it with your daughter to babysit. And anyway she made plans. Your instruction was too vague.

I babysat at 13.

I often left my 13 year old son at home alone at that age. Also let him use extensive public transport networks into and around the big cities near us on his own, also taxis and my Uber account.

Did your daughter say to you explicitly she would stay in? I think maybe a difference in what was expected of her is the real problem not her.

That's not normal, maybe at 18.

Your babying your 13 year old. He's in Year 9 at senior school. I'm sure he's capable of staying in by himself for an hr. I take it his got a mobile?

But even if she had been told she wasn't allowed to go out, I don't think that would have been a reasonable instruction based on the facts you've given. I do think you're babying DS.

Why? My 16 year old works shifts in his apprenticeship and doesn't even finish work until 11pm. They are 16 year olds not 6.

My child is 4, I'm a lone parent and have no support. Therefore I have not had a night out since having them. That's just something i have to live with. You actually sound like a child. She gets to go out a lot and you almost never go out? She's a kid, not a babysitter. Its your job to arrange childcare, not to use her.

She tried to contact you anyway, not her fault you turned your phone off instead of putting it on silent. Then didn't turn your data on when you turned it back on.

Your house, your rules. Not going to hurt a 16 year old to stay in one evening when you ask. Next time she needs a lift to x,y or z I’m sure she’ll be very put out if you are too busy to do it. She needs to learn give and take.

@Tighginn it was very normal in the 80s!

Silent mode is for the cinema etc. You need to be contactable by both your kids in an emergency, given that they’re under 18. (Mine are 11 and 7 so I’m not quite at that stage yet, but I think I’d feel the same).

I'm not expecting dd to be a babysitter, but I don't think it's unreasonable for her to keep him company occasionally.

Keeping him company is babysitting.

I agree she should occasionally look after her brother but you didn't give her notice so I in this case I think YABU.

Well it doesn't sound like you were clear with your expectations since your DS wasn't 'home alone all evening'. Your dd also messaged you about her plans so wasn't being sneaky. It's not her fault you didn't think to check your phone.

I don't think you should expect your dd to be around for your son but you could ASK her if she would do so. At 13 though, I babysat my younger siblings regularly and in the days before mobile phones, had no means of contacting my parents unless they were going to someone's house and left their phone number.

On another occasion you could just make sure you check your phone so your son could contact you if need be. Or let him go to a friend's house for the evening?

A 13 year old was left alone for an hour or two? Unless he has additional needs then you're being ridiculous. Also it's not your child's responsibility to look after your other child.

You're totally overreacting.

You need to be clearer about your expectations. As you phrased it vaguely, DD did meet the terms of the request to not leave him all night. You also need to be clearer about how to communicate if the situation changes. I don't think expecting a 16yo to look out for a sibling is unreasonable, if there is a clear expectation involved.

My oldest is about to turn 13 in the next few months. I'm happy to leave him for a few hours in the day/ early evening, but he will not feed himself sensibly, so my timings are chosen around him having had a meal shortly before I leave. I should be fine for something like the cinema if I'd fed him first (he does have ANs affecting co-ordination, executive function, and ability to recognise he's hungry). On the other hand he's more than happy to have time on his own. My 10yo is more competent in skills but likes company. He's gradually building his comfort zone on being left in the daytime for limited periods.

It's worth thinking about why you don't want to leave the 13yo. Is it something he just needs to build up and get used to? Is there something practical that he finds difficult? Is it your perception? DM would book me babysitters for the evening until I was 14, and that was about her feelings of not liking being alone and not listening to me that I was happy in my own company. It was great to be alone and make my own choices on the TV!

I find it staggering that you find this staggering. 16 year olds have been going out late for millennia.

My 16 year old is often out until midnight plus as long as they are at friends/parties etc.

When I was 16 we were out at the pub/clubbing/going to raves. Brilliant times. My 16 year old is much more tame. You are only young once.