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Original poster

To think the Labour Party has lost its mind..

379 replies

Certainfailure · 08/11/2023 18:32

Absolutely fuming with some of the clowns in the Labour Party.
25 points ahead of the Conservatives in the opinion polls.
Starmer slowly making the party electable and moving away from the reputation of the party being a left wing student activist group and terrorist supporters. The next GE theirs to lose.
And now word on the grapevine is that 40 odd MPs are ready to resign from the front bench because of they disagree with Starmer’s stance on a ceasefire. Quite a few labour councillors have already resigned from the party and now stand as independents. Big names like Rayner and Burnham have already stuck their oars in too.
Really cannot believe that a conflict thousands of miles away, albeit tragic, has now assumed more importance than the frightful state of the country. That these people are quite happy to throw away the progress that’s been made electorally for the sake of a frankly almost unsolvable conflict that’s lasted 70 plus years and is incredibly complex whilst the country is rapidly falling apart and in desperate need of change.
If Starmer resigns over this, no way will I ever vote Labour again and I say this as a life long labour voter for the last 35 years. Thought we’d seen the last of Corbyn and his vote losing influence but nope, there he is, with his little pet project, destined to scupper yet another GE for Labour. Anyone feel the same way ?

OP posts:
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Original poster
Certainfailure · 08/11/2023 20:38

@Judashascomeintosomemoney listen to iPlayer. Not everything is a flipping conspiracy.

OP posts:
Echobelly · 08/11/2023 20:38

@SurelySmartie - the difference is that Russia and various other places carrying our atrocities are not countries the UK declares as an ally. This makes Israel different and is a reason to protest here because, in theory, our government could have influence with Israel (only it won't use it). My husband has been very annoyed for years with why some people pick on Israel to criticise and not other places, but he can see the reason this is different.

hologramvirus · 08/11/2023 20:40

notlucreziaborgia · 08/11/2023 20:36

Lol, 40 MPs calling for a ceasefire when Hamas doesn’t want that any more than they want a two state solution. The last time that was seriously entertained Hamas kept sending suicide bombers in.

A Hamas spokesman, Ghazi Hamad, went on TV and stated the intention to repeat the October 7 attacks until Israel is annihilated. That’s the end goal for them. They don’t give a fuck about their own civilians, they’re happy to let them die rather than release the hostages and put their weapons down.

You can’t have a ceasefire that only one side agrees to.

Not only are they happy to let them die, they actually exalted in it, calling these civilian children, women and men martyrs, even though none of them agreed to let Hamas martyr them.

Hamas are a religious Islamist movement. You can’t negotiate with them any more than you could with ISIS.

Sartre · 08/11/2023 20:42

It’s because his wife is Jewish so as a result he promised when he was elected to stand by Jewish people at all costs. Seems to be conflating anti-semitism with a very humanist plea to the Israeli government to stop murdering tens of thousands of innocent people including thousands of children…

My family are Jewish, my Grandma is furious with the Israeli government and frankly embarrassed about the whole situation. Most Jewish people want a ceasefire, most people with an ounce of humanity do ffs.

MissyB1 · 08/11/2023 20:43

Sartre · 08/11/2023 20:42

It’s because his wife is Jewish so as a result he promised when he was elected to stand by Jewish people at all costs. Seems to be conflating anti-semitism with a very humanist plea to the Israeli government to stop murdering tens of thousands of innocent people including thousands of children…

My family are Jewish, my Grandma is furious with the Israeli government and frankly embarrassed about the whole situation. Most Jewish people want a ceasefire, most people with an ounce of humanity do ffs.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

notlucreziaborgia · 08/11/2023 20:46

hologramvirus · 08/11/2023 20:40

Not only are they happy to let them die, they actually exalted in it, calling these civilian children, women and men martyrs, even though none of them agreed to let Hamas martyr them.

Hamas are a religious Islamist movement. You can’t negotiate with them any more than you could with ISIS.

Show quote history

Exactly. And look what happens when the neighbouring countries open their borders to them, and why that is the reason they won’t. One example:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September

Hamas can release the hostages right now and agree to a ceasefire. They can choose to put the lives of Palestinians above their ideology. They won’t though.

Black September - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September

notlucreziaborgia · 08/11/2023 20:47

Sartre · 08/11/2023 20:42

It’s because his wife is Jewish so as a result he promised when he was elected to stand by Jewish people at all costs. Seems to be conflating anti-semitism with a very humanist plea to the Israeli government to stop murdering tens of thousands of innocent people including thousands of children…

My family are Jewish, my Grandma is furious with the Israeli government and frankly embarrassed about the whole situation. Most Jewish people want a ceasefire, most people with an ounce of humanity do ffs.

Hamas don’t, however.

newtlover · 08/11/2023 20:48

Mysterian · 08/11/2023 18:36

One side want the fighting to stop for a bit so humanitarian aid can get in, whereas the other side want the fighting to stop for a bit so humanitarian aid can get in, but with a slightly different name.

The party must split!

I have heard KS explain why a humanitarian pause is better than a ceasefire but not heard anyone say why a ceasefire is better than a humanitarian pause.
TBH I'm not sure I fully understand the difference myself but the fact that I'm not hearing the latter being explained suggests to me this is just a stick to beat KS with. So something else is at play here.

The war is beyond horrific and the Palestinian cause is just, yet the antisemitism experienced by Jewish people outside Israel only confirms to them their need for a place of safety. The only way forward is a 2 state solution but apparently this is not acceptable to the leaders on either side.

Its ridiculous that the Labour party squabble over this issue while the Tories' appalling behaviour during Covid- and before and after- is being sidelined. They must be delighted.

DottieMoon · 08/11/2023 20:48

notlucreziaborgia · 08/11/2023 20:36

Lol, 40 MPs calling for a ceasefire when Hamas doesn’t want that any more than they want a two state solution. The last time that was seriously entertained Hamas kept sending suicide bombers in.

A Hamas spokesman, Ghazi Hamad, went on TV and stated the intention to repeat the October 7 attacks until Israel is annihilated. That’s the end goal for them. They don’t give a fuck about their own civilians, they’re happy to let them die rather than release the hostages and put their weapons down.

You can’t have a ceasefire that only one side agrees to.

Israel and Netanyahu have no intention of a ceasefire so it’s not all one sided, they have also never wanted a two state solution and have exerted a brutal regime of oppression and apartheid for decades. They don’t give a fuck about Palestinian civilians and are happy to use Hamas as an excuse to commit genocide and wipe all of Palestine out. They are worse than Hamas.

Abhannmor · 08/11/2023 20:48

Bit out there. There aren't 40 ppl on any frontbench. I imagine lots of MPs of all parties favour a ceasefire. We had one here in Ireland and everyone thought it was wonderful. All wars end with one ?

The only way this will be a problem is if Starmer starts expelling people and splits the party. Robin Cook resigned over Iraq - he was proved right of course . Blair just accepted it gracefully and that was that. If KS aspires to leadership he'll have to get used to MPs having their own opinions.

Alifestylechoice · 08/11/2023 20:49

I mean the more of the Corbynites that leave the better really

magicmole · 08/11/2023 20:49

411sleeper · 08/11/2023 19:03

Ukraine is a war. Gaza is a genocide. I'm glad we have some politicians brave enough to stand up for people even if they are thousands of miles away.

So you'd expect lots of brave Labour politicians to stand up for the Yemeni Arab civilians while they were being wiped out by Saudi bombing raids?
That's killed more than 300,000 people and caused a famine. 85,000 children under 5 are believed to have starved to death in the past few years because of it.

And the UK sells billions in weapons to the Saudis - over half of Saudi Arabia's combat aircraft used against Yemen are UK-supplied. There's evidence that UK-made cluster bombs were used on Yemeni civilian targets. Surely our brave MPs might have an opinion on it?

Yet dozens of Labour MPs didn't even bother to turn up to vote in Parliament. The then Shadow Foreign Secretary publicly criticised her own people for it.

And did lots of brave politicians stand up against the genocide of the Rohingya Muslims? An ethnic cleansing which has seen summary execution of children and adults, mass rape, the burning down of entire villages and the creation of the world's biggest refugee camp? Nope. Fewer than 50 signed a statement condemning it (and only 3 Tories).

It really looks like some MPs are only "brave" enough to stand up for one specific group of Muslims.

Sureaseggs44 · 08/11/2023 20:52

TakeMe2Insanity · 08/11/2023 18:56

Maybe view it as 40 mps don’t want a child to die every 10 mins in Gaza? While it’s clearly unimportant for you, it clearly matters to them. I’d much prefer an mp who stood up for what was right than doing nothing.

Show quote history

Even if Starmer did his normal flip flop just calling for a ceasefire does not mean it will happen does it ? Of course they can voice opinions but that’s all it is , it won’t be making any difference until Hamas release the hostages . It’s virtue signalling .

notlucreziaborgia · 08/11/2023 20:52

DottieMoon · 08/11/2023 20:48

Israel and Netanyahu have no intention of a ceasefire so it’s not all one sided, they have also never wanted a two state solution and have exerted a brutal regime of oppression and apartheid for decades. They don’t give a fuck about Palestinian civilians and are happy to use Hamas as an excuse to commit genocide and wipe all of Palestine out. They are worse than Hamas.

Show quote history

Of course they don’t - because they know they’d be the only ones expected to abide by it. You cannot have a ceasefire when one side has no intention of ceasing.

Hamas isn’t ’an excuse’ - they’re the fucking reason. Same as they’re the reason why their neighbours have no interest in allowing Palestinians in as refugees. They are the ones that have outright stated they want to see Israel annihilated, and intend to repeat the attacks until this is achieved.

They are happy to see their own civilians die and become martyrs.

Binjob118 · 08/11/2023 20:53

Libertass · 08/11/2023 19:20

YANBU. And I say that as a former Labour activist who left the party when it elected Corbyn as leader because this indicated that the party was no longer interested in even trying to win.

Starmer has dragged the party back into the mainstream, back to the median voter & made it electable again, and now the hard left are trying to sabotage everything yet again. The left don’t care about winning. Never have, never will.

You do know that Corbyn probably would of won the GE in 2017 if the backstabbers in his own party hadn't succeeded along with the most of the media.

Sureaseggs44 · 08/11/2023 20:54

magicmole · 08/11/2023 20:49

So you'd expect lots of brave Labour politicians to stand up for the Yemeni Arab civilians while they were being wiped out by Saudi bombing raids?
That's killed more than 300,000 people and caused a famine. 85,000 children under 5 are believed to have starved to death in the past few years because of it.

And the UK sells billions in weapons to the Saudis - over half of Saudi Arabia's combat aircraft used against Yemen are UK-supplied. There's evidence that UK-made cluster bombs were used on Yemeni civilian targets. Surely our brave MPs might have an opinion on it?

Yet dozens of Labour MPs didn't even bother to turn up to vote in Parliament. The then Shadow Foreign Secretary publicly criticised her own people for it.

And did lots of brave politicians stand up against the genocide of the Rohingya Muslims? An ethnic cleansing which has seen summary execution of children and adults, mass rape, the burning down of entire villages and the creation of the world's biggest refugee camp? Nope. Fewer than 50 signed a statement condemning it (and only 3 Tories).

It really looks like some MPs are only "brave" enough to stand up for one specific group of Muslims.

Show quote history

Or against one specific group , one they have targeted many times before . It’s a case of true colours being shown again .

Dweetfidilove · 08/11/2023 20:56

Is Keir actually electable? At the moment I think both leaders are unelectable, so Lord knows what I’ll do with my vote.

Another thing is - if the streets are packed with pro-Palestinian protesters every weekend, is Keir’s current stance on the conflict one that can win the election?

AnneLovesGilbert · 08/11/2023 20:58

magicmole · 08/11/2023 20:49

So you'd expect lots of brave Labour politicians to stand up for the Yemeni Arab civilians while they were being wiped out by Saudi bombing raids?
That's killed more than 300,000 people and caused a famine. 85,000 children under 5 are believed to have starved to death in the past few years because of it.

And the UK sells billions in weapons to the Saudis - over half of Saudi Arabia's combat aircraft used against Yemen are UK-supplied. There's evidence that UK-made cluster bombs were used on Yemeni civilian targets. Surely our brave MPs might have an opinion on it?

Yet dozens of Labour MPs didn't even bother to turn up to vote in Parliament. The then Shadow Foreign Secretary publicly criticised her own people for it.

And did lots of brave politicians stand up against the genocide of the Rohingya Muslims? An ethnic cleansing which has seen summary execution of children and adults, mass rape, the burning down of entire villages and the creation of the world's biggest refugee camp? Nope. Fewer than 50 signed a statement condemning it (and only 3 Tories).

It really looks like some MPs are only "brave" enough to stand up for one specific group of Muslims.

Show quote history

Absolutely 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Angrycat2768 · 08/11/2023 21:01

Alifestylechoice · 08/11/2023 20:49

I mean the more of the Corbynites that leave the better really

Agree. They have always been obsessed with Palestine to the exclusion of everything else, which is how they ended up getting Labout hauled in front of the Equalities Commission. The Left would rather a Tory government forever than any kind of proof that Labour can only win without them. The Palestine situation is horrific but KS calling for a ceasefire which will do nothing for the Palestine situation at all. But will mean that the press use it as a stick to beat him and may lose Labour the election. Then we, in this country will end up with an absolute even more of a shitshow government with carte blanche to do what the hell they like, knowing that they can get away with criminal levels of incompetence because Labour will always shoot itself in the head at the last moment.

IvorTheEngineDriver · 08/11/2023 21:03

One of the few things you can rely on in British politics is that when the chips are down, Labour will find a way to fuck up.

I'm off down the bookies to put a tenner on Rishi being the next PM.

Dymaxion · 08/11/2023 21:05

When people say ceasefire , do they mean both sides ?

I don't think we are that influential in this arena, America and Qatar seem to be the big hitters ?

Angrycat2768 · 08/11/2023 21:08

Dymaxion · 08/11/2023 21:05

When people say ceasefire , do they mean both sides ?

I don't think we are that influential in this arena, America and Qatar seem to be the big hitters ?

Exactly. America seems to be doing the hard yards here. They seem to be making inroads and talking. No one in Israel cares what the UK shadow levelling up secretary thinks.

AuContraire · 08/11/2023 21:08

I do not understand what the point is of demanding a KS "calls for a ceasefire" which Hamas have said they will not do.

This is ridiculous, immature posturing.

Does saying the words make one pass the purity test, even though it makes no difference to anything anywhere?

We need better elected representatives.

bombastix · 08/11/2023 21:08

You know people like power and are more ambitious than they ever confess to their constituents. I am sure some of this is keenly felt, and then some will be wondering as to their relative importance post the coming election.

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