To think the Labour Party has lost its mind..

[Certainfailure]

Absolutely fuming with some of the clowns in the Labour Party.
25 points ahead of the Conservatives in the opinion polls.
Starmer slowly making the party electable and moving away from the reputation of the party being a left wing student activist group and terrorist supporters. The next GE theirs to lose.
And now word on the grapevine is that 40 odd MPs are ready to resign from the front bench because of they disagree with Starmer’s stance on a ceasefire. Quite a few labour councillors have already resigned from the party and now stand as independents. Big names like Rayner and Burnham have already stuck their oars in too.
Really cannot believe that a conflict thousands of miles away, albeit tragic, has now assumed more importance than the frightful state of the country. That these people are quite happy to throw away the progress that’s been made electorally for the sake of a frankly almost unsolvable conflict that’s lasted 70 plus years and is incredibly complex whilst the country is rapidly falling apart and in desperate need of change.
If Starmer resigns over this, no way will I ever vote Labour again and I say this as a life long labour voter for the last 35 years. Thought we’d seen the last of Corbyn and his vote losing influence but nope, there he is, with his little pet project, destined to scupper yet another GE for Labour. Anyone feel the same way ?

Fair enough, so we have an estimated death toll of around 12,000 people, approx 4000 are children.

So after a 48hr etc ceasefire, how many more Palestinians should die to achieve the (imho) the impossible of destroying Hamas?
I assume the number is unlimited?

What exactly is the point in giving a small amount of water etc to people who almost certainly will be killed?

Gaza is on the point of famine, 500 trucks used to provide aid every day, now it is around 5% of that plus they have no fuel or water.

Might as will keep on going? instead of prolonging the agony.

@Alexandra2001 - I would be interested in your view as to whether Israel do keep going. My view is that they are not going to stop, and a humanitarian pause or whatever it is called would probably not last.

The Israelis look like they are levelling Gaza and destroying tunnels. My assumption is that they won't stop, or at least, Netanyahu will want total destruction with aid severely limited for the whole conflict.

I think public statements made by the military and politicians in Israel support that they wont stop, the PR will get better but the bombing will continue, until Gaza can be controlled by Israel.

I might add, that initially i was 100% behind Israel but once it became clear they had zero regard for civilians, i changed my opinion.

What the Labour Party needs is to do is to remember that it isn't the Tory party.

Oh, and you don't win votes by chasing votes, trotting to the right each time. Have clear values and unambiguous policies.

Stomacharmeleon · 17/11/2023 16:18

^whether you like it or not it was an official ceasefire....
there were atrocities happening on both sides Wife and two daughters ambushed and shot dead.....^

My point is that, in all these horrible wars they have, there's a ceasefire and Israel bombs and carries out air raids, killing people, whilst claiming to be keeping the ceasefire. They call the raids police actions, to muddy the waters.

Think what you have to remember is the majority of the British public don't really have this at the forefront of their mind.

A foreign war which we have no influence over vs concentrating on starting to run this country properly. Honestly, most people are more concerned with the latter. Labour would do well to remember that, they really need to look outside their urban/london/activist bubble in general.

Whether or not the people potentially governing and actually governing the country condone genocide should matter to a lot of people.

Our loved ones matter. Politicians' responses to their oppression and their deaths matters.

Can he.afford yet another flip flop? And wouldn't the electorate.be unhappy about an election centred on a.foreign.catastrophe rather than what's happening here in the UK?
Labour.lost the plot years ago. They have forgotten what they are for. In.fact I more than half believe that they despise the working classes. They are so above all that
now. And to have the temerity to let a war in another country distract from our crumbling NHS, our battle weary education service, underfunded police etc etc
I would despair of a party that campaigned for Palestine while people in Britain need their attention.

@Papyrophile that's an interesting viewpoint.

Can I ask, what does being a One Nation Conservative actually mean for you? Most of the people I've met who have used that label to describe themselves have not come across as particularly liberal other than in comparison with the far-right? And how does that identity square with voting for Labour or Reform? Why them over the Conservative party?

Do you think other minority groups should have a voice in policy-making? Who should have a voice there? And if a group of 7 million people shouldn't have a voice in policy-making, what does that mean for their rights in the UK?

In relation to the One Nation bit of the name, where do you stand in relation to issues of devolution and unions of consent? If Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland were to have a majority in favour of independence from the UK as a whole, what would you envisage as the right thing to do, and why?

I think we are a long way from Labour advocating Shira law.

However, as we can see in the USA, restricting women's rights is exactly what the right wing in politics are aiming for, we;ve seen it in various statements from former Govt ministers, in who they go and visit in the USA., hopefully the American electorate will reject this in November.

The current Tory party is a long way from the One Nation party i have voted for in the past, even a modern day Thatcher would be considered too far to the left to get into Government, just look at her ministers who have either left the party or been booted out..... these are Thatcher loyalists who served her well.

I fear the "populist" right wing, far more than anything in todays Labour party, who to me are more akin to a centre right party in a European context.

Aside, where would you move too? have you a European passport? or go further afield? and would age be a consideration?

I don't think Keir Starmer is an idiot and is well aware that engaging with the more demonstrative elements against the war in Gaza won't win him any votes and that if he wants middle ground voters like @Papyrophile then he won't be in a hurry to engage with a perception that minority Muslim laws should be encouraged.

Personally I would like to see a lot less adoption of religious life in the U.K as being of significance. It is very divisive. The UK is a socially liberal country because it gave up Christianity as the basis of social laws in the 1960s. There isn't a vacuum.

I'm not quite sure why my post has been deleted! Presumably someone reported although I didn't think it was controversial.

@Alexandra2001 If we were to move it would likely be somewhere in Europe, under a retirement visa like Portugal's D7; France and Spain have similar programmes provided you can prove sufficient income or assets.

But as you say, the restrictions on women's rights, whether from the extreme right or the "cultural traditions" of religious fanatics, are absolutely terrifying. I just read an article on honour-based crime suggesting that

"The latest data, sourced by the Family Law Company, reveals a harrowing reality: a 62% increase in reported cases of honour-based abuse from 2020 to 2022. These figures, drawn from 26 out of 39 constabularies, offer a glimpse into the pervasive nature of this crisis, with the Metropolitan Police, West Midlands, and Greater Manchester forces bearing the brunt of the burden."

@Scirocco As I said yesterday, I shall probably vote Labour as the candidate at the last GE seemed pretty competent, although he didn't seem to do much canvassing.

I won't vote for the current version of the Tories and that is purely down to the internal infighting, the endless tide of cronyism and nest-feathering, plus they are out of ideas. The One Nation element when it included competent principled people is complete anathema to the Tories as they are today. Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine would cross the floor.

Despite suggesting Reform, that was a bit tongue in cheek, even tactically. Which leaves a choice between Labour, LibDem and Mebyon Kernow. Where is the "None of the above" box on the ballot sheet?

@Papyrophile Sounds like you re in my part of the world, SE Cornwall.

Labour winning down here would be a miracle but why not? we ve a decent Labour councillor (a rarity as most are Tory) & who could really be worse than Sheryl Murray or Scott "GPS knife" Mann ?

On female rights, i just hope the UK doesn't go the way of the USA, especially on abortion.

Many places do indeed need a 'None of the above' option.

Oh, I don't know...

If they resign, they can't influence policy.

If they resign, they make way for politicians who will do their jobs instead of currying favour with idealistic performance tantrums.

Would be better if we had a PR system, at least then, the electorate could vote for candidates who have a realistic chance of winning.

Not voting, spoiling the ballot etc makes zero difference.... look how all parties crow when they win a by election with 40% of the vote?

Definitely @Alexandra2001 FPTP is a rubbish system.

This, exactly. It's not going to make any difference, this kind of posturing. It's just going to weaken the party.

It's the easiest thing in the world to "demand" a ceasefire immediately. It's easy to link arms, chant, go on a demo, show you're anti war.
What's harder is being in power. Having responsibilities on the international stage, dealing with other nations. Putting emotive statements on the back burner and being proactive and responsive. That's much, much harder. I think Starmer understands that.

To be fair, it very much looks like Starmer IS going to win votes that way this time around, but only because the Tories have made themselves so absolutely unelectable, while most people are still broadly comfortable with the economic ideology they stand for (failing to see the connection between that ideology and our steadily evaporating quality of life).

That will only get him one term though. What happens at the end of that when people work out that if you elect someone on a platform of keeping everything the same, everything will stay the same?

What happens at the end of that when people work out that if you elect someone on a platform of keeping everything the same, everything will stay the same?

That isn’t why Labour will be elected or what will happen. It’s standing on a platform of economic growth to pay for better public services.