To think the Labour Party has lost its mind..

[Certainfailure]

Absolutely fuming with some of the clowns in the Labour Party.
25 points ahead of the Conservatives in the opinion polls.
Starmer slowly making the party electable and moving away from the reputation of the party being a left wing student activist group and terrorist supporters. The next GE theirs to lose.
And now word on the grapevine is that 40 odd MPs are ready to resign from the front bench because of they disagree with Starmer’s stance on a ceasefire. Quite a few labour councillors have already resigned from the party and now stand as independents. Big names like Rayner and Burnham have already stuck their oars in too.
Really cannot believe that a conflict thousands of miles away, albeit tragic, has now assumed more importance than the frightful state of the country. That these people are quite happy to throw away the progress that’s been made electorally for the sake of a frankly almost unsolvable conflict that’s lasted 70 plus years and is incredibly complex whilst the country is rapidly falling apart and in desperate need of change.
If Starmer resigns over this, no way will I ever vote Labour again and I say this as a life long labour voter for the last 35 years. Thought we’d seen the last of Corbyn and his vote losing influence but nope, there he is, with his little pet project, destined to scupper yet another GE for Labour. Anyone feel the same way ?

I wouldn’t vote for Starmer, he is just another Tory. I have way more respect for the politicians standing up for humanity and try to get a ceasefire than just saying nothing cause they are protecting their jobs and positions, I know what side of history I want my mp to be on. We need a new proper socialist Labour Party and we need to get rid of these war crimes accomplices.

The carnage unleashed on civilians in Gaza within just the first few weeks is less than the civilian death toll in Ukraine since it started.

It is also the case that our government spoke up for Ukraine is against Russia and has denounced what they are doing whereas we are clearly ‘winning’ for the genocide of innocents

Here's the real problem: most people don't/won't join political parties.

In the case of Labour that means that the typical party activist is nothing like the typical Labour voter or swing voter.

So the grown-ups in the party will always have a perpetual fight with the student activists or their older versions and the militant factions that will never go away. Look at all the current Gaza protests - many of the placards are branded with Socialist Worker. Some years ago I did some research in to their correspondence addresses and which other organisations share the same address. Those people will always be looking to infiltrate Labour.

Anyone thinking of voting Labour, if you're too young to remember Neil Kinnock's battles with Militant then go and read about it. And recent history shows that elected Corbyn types are ever present in the wings of the party.

It's a pity the Tories can't present a more electable alternative.

A great post.

The opinions of individuals reported by the Daily Mail does not constitute international consensus of genocide. As you well know.

Goodness me, you're wilfully obtuse, aren't you?

As you know well, I didn't say "just the Daily Mail," I'm certain that you understood that even they, who are generally rather down on Muslims of any stripe, have made mention of it.

And if you think that the ICRC&RC, the WHO, UNRWA, Amnesty etc are just odd individuals, then I'm not sure what to make of you.

Probably because the government will usually condemn aggressors in other conflicts and human rights abuses. This time they are openly supporting it, and there are lots of people that they don’t speak for.

And Netanyahu has said he wants to rid all Palestinians including the babies off the map too. Hamas government and Israeli government are both terrorists. The Palestinian people are innocent victims.

No, and you know that too.

You stated that ‘Israel is committing genocide’ is majority opinion. When asked for evidence you say ‘read the news’ - I have. There’s a lot of opinion pieces and hyperbole, but there categorically is no statement by any international political body, reflecting majority opinion, of genocide being committed by Israel.

The UN does not claim it. Nor does the ICRC or RC. I also see nothing from the WHO, UNRWA or indeed Amnesty.

Both parties have their crazies though. At the moment, Labour seem to be doing a better job of keeping a lid on theirs, while the Tories have put them in government, and are currently letting them undermine their Prime Minister who is too scared to sack Braverman who has openly disobeyed him and broken ministerial rules. Tail wagging the dog. The issue is our electoral system which makes coalitions out of people who would otherwise form centrist parties, and Hard Left/Right parties.
Incidentally, what did your research find?

@Livinginanotherworld but there are lots they do speak for and lots that are ambivalent.

I take it you will be standing?

No, and you know that too.

I know nothing of the sort; in fact, I know the exact opposite.

You stated that ‘Israel is committing genocide’ is majority opinion. When asked for evidence you say ‘read the news’...

You first, you claim that a majority of experts don't agree.

The please accept my apologies for crediting it you with a greater ability to comprehend than you actually possess.

That’s not how that works. You made the claim that there is a majority consensus as to Israel committing genocide, the onus is on you to prove it. Ironically though, if you would like the see the opposite, then go ahead and check the websites of the organisations you listed earlier. While there is criticism of Israel and great concern expressed for the humanitarian situation, you’ll notice that Israel is not in fact being accused of genocide.

Doesn’t what is happening in Scotland with the demise of the SNP have a bigger impact on his electoral chances that this?

Your post on “brutal sexual violence” could equally refer to the US Armed forces and coalition allies (including the U.K.) if you consider what they did in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or any military in any war for that matter.

No army is so moral that they do not commit sexual atrocities against women and children. They all have done it and do it.

And yet they are human enough to talk sense to and agree to peace treaties as well. Hamas is no exception. The violence isn’t going to end by more bombing, by more atrocities and more deaths of innocent women and children. Wars end through diplomacy.

good to know how many actual paedophile 'freedom fighter' defenders there are right here on MN btw

I hope you were not referring to me with this snippet.

@SinnerBoy
They say that they are not targetting civilians, but the figures dispute that. 70% civilian casualties indicates a deliberate and methodical targetting of civilians, even if the Israelis claim otherwise and blame Hamas for 1 ton Israeli bunker busters being dropped on blocks of flats.

In an interview with Antonio Gutierrez, the Secretary General of the UN, he stated that 99.7% of the casualties were innocent civilians. That only 0.3% of casualties were Hamas terrorists.

I think there’s a vote tonight that will see some resignations / firings

I was shocked to see this headline yesterday on the Telegraph:

Starmer ready to sack Labour shadow ministers who vote for Gaza ceasefire
Figures close to Labour leader believe more than 10 of his frontbenchers could end up supporting an amendment
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/11/14/starmer-sack-labour-frontbench-rebels-gaza-ceasefire-vote/

Four so far including Jess Phillips.

Conflicts and invasions all over the world but the only one these Labour MP’s and councillors are interested in involves Israel.
Labour is still an anti semitic party.

It’s why I laughed at all the people banging on about a Labour landslide. I’m no Tory fan but Labour are a shit show and this proves it. Never known a party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory quite like Labour.

Unbelievable. These fucking muppets never, ever learn. They put their self indulgent ‘principles’ ahead of winning every single time. Nobody who voted Tory in 2019 in Stoke, Mansfield, Hartlepool or any of the other areas Labour needs to win back next year gives a flying fuck about bloody Palestine.

Starmer is striving to make Labour electable again. To drag it away from the fringes & into the mainstream, to where the median Red Wall voter is. To turn it from a naive party of protest into a hard-headed party of government.

Governing means facing up to hard realities, making tough decisions & difficult choices. The Left can’t & won’t do that so they flounce instead. It’s pathetic.

@GreekDogRescue I have always been a Labour supporter but I am beginning to think the same.

I've always rolled my eyes a bit at the ' mainstream media makes us lose elections' because Labour always use it as an excuse but don't do enough to engage young people who don't read ' mainstream media' but the Right wing media will definitely use any rebellion to overhype disunity in the Labour ranks to try and hide the crater like divisions in the Tory party. I hope at the very least there is a coalition with the Lib Dems, but I suspect SKS stance will gather more votes than it loses.