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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

If you are autistic do people often not answer the question you are asking but give a more generalised answer?

389 replies

Hotandsunny · 07/11/2023 22:20

Just a thought that came to mind. I often find when I ask people questions about something very specific they don't seem to get it and just give you a general answer. I don't know what it is. But I have oftenish been in a situation where people just don't seem to understand what you are asking. So I was wondering if it was an autistic thing.

The example from today was I was doing a school appeal and the school had sent a list of rooms and room sizes as evidence that the school was full. I tried to question the school about what the different rooms were used for, about class sizes and what rooms the 6th form used. All the deputy head could do was repeat that Y7 was full.

I say you haven't answered my question and ask again and get the same reply. A member of the panel says to me I just don't like the reply I'm getting. I don't, because it doesn't answer my question.

This isn't an isolated incident by a long shot.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 02:44

debbrianna · 08/11/2023 00:44

I think the op is looking for an answer that the thread is not answering/giving. Going around in circles does not change the outcome of what you are looking for. Plenty of examples have been given.

Recheck your post and see where you would have gotten a different answer. Sometimes being completely direct without explaining why before the question you asked (as explained in your op) might be why the school was able to cut you off.

Show quote history

The thing I wasn't the first to ask questions. Obviously everyone was asking questions along the same theme.

But I'll accept the answer from the NT - nobody should feel compelled to answer a question in any circumstances and no matter the situation. And that was why the teacher didn't answer the questions. And that's fine but perhaps that teacher could have got someone who was ok answering questions to do the appeal as it's a big part of it.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 02:48

SageLavenderThyme · 08/11/2023 00:45

Another reason this could have happened was that the teacher didn't know all of the information, but just wanted to finish the meeting on one day, and didn't want to have continued back and forth about it?

I don't think that people are necessarily answering your direct questions in a general way because you are autistic. People do this a lot, I am not autistic and have noticed this frequently.

Some people also like to almost 'set the scene' or 'tell the story' to lead in to a point. Example would be pp with autistic husband above.

My preferred communication style would be to answer the question directly, then explain. But this is definitely one of many styles of answering I have noticed.

It's she maybe hadn't prepared properly and didn't want to find information. And I know it is what it is but I just think if you don't prepare then you might have to waste a bit of time (everyone's not just yours) finding information. Just maybe you should prepare properly before an appeal. But I know that's very rigid.

OP posts:
Ladyj84 · 08/11/2023 02:51

I think what your trying to say is autistic people tend to want a proper full on answer to a question that may sound meaningless to a normal person. We want the ins and outs of things sometimes when other people are happy with a basic answer

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 02:55

Ger1atricMillennial · 08/11/2023 00:45

Its a difficult situation OP, but in this instance, it seems like their current decision is final. As admirable as it is that you are pushing for a good education for your child, asking for more and more detailed answers thinking you are going to get a "gotcha" moment is not a good way to build a relationship with this school.

Is there a way that you could develop a better relationship so you will be first on their list when a space does become available?

Show quote history

You have to go through the appeal process. A decision hasn't been made as yet but I'm hopeful we will succeed. I wasn't looking for a 'gotcha' on the school but the nature of an appeal is that you are fighting against each other. And you have to carefully question your opponent to get relevant information. I had taken advice so knew what things I needed to find out through questioning and knew what points to argue.

In terms of being on a waiting list there is a strict admissions policy to follow, they don't let in students on the basis of if they like their mum. Which is a shame as one of my close friends works there! 😂

OP posts:
InWalksBarberalla · 08/11/2023 02:57

Given someone else tried to ask her a question 3 times and then gave up this feels like it was an issue with her rather than any NT/ND communication style.
Maybe she was under prepared because she was given short notice, or the time she has allocated to prepare was chewed up by an emergency, or she had a migraine and was pumped up on painkillers and her brain wasn't working as normal, or she just generally is a bit crap at her job. Who knows. Hopefully there is a way to appeal the appeal if she couldn't answer yours or others questions.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 02:57

Nepmarthiturn · 08/11/2023 00:45

The thing is, people don't have to communicate on your terms

I recommend autistic people repeat this back over and over again to NT people who moan about how we communicate.

Can't have it both ways... 😁

So true!

OP posts:
decionsdecisions62 · 08/11/2023 03:01

Just because you ask a question in a very particular way does not automatically mean it has to be reciprocated. You are thinking in a very one dimensional way.

Everyone comes to the table with their own agendas. The schools agenda is to put up with you for a few hours so they look like they are following process so you then go away, whilst also not saying anything that could get into the local press and reflect poorly on the school.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 03:03

debbrianna · 08/11/2023 00:56

What if the one space you calculated went to another child during the same appeal process?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the one space I calculated' but I clearly have to argue for one extra space for my DD.

If both appeals (there were only 2) are upheld then both DC will get a space at the school.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 03:04

EveSix · 08/11/2023 00:59

debrianna, see my post re the PAN. They could just be full. Galling, OP, when named school says no, for whatever reason. Ensuring a suitable education for one's SEN child shouldn't have to be a fight. I'm doing the same -it's exhausting.

It is isn't it? But if the appeals are upheld the school will go above their PAN.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 03:07

Disturbia81 · 08/11/2023 01:00

You say "meet her needs" so I assume she has additional needs. So it's not just adding 1 child to a class of 29.

All children have needs. This school is well set up to meet my DD's needs. This is a key point of an appeal you have to say how the school will meet your DC's needs, it doesn't mean they have additional needs.

OP posts:
YogaBearOnAChair · 08/11/2023 03:13

OP I would have interpreted your repeated question as pushy and rude, and overstepping. Did you expect the school to completely change the school timetable for all years to allow them to increase the size of Year 7 just for your child? Why would they want to do all that extra work when they are not obliged to? That would impact on everyone in the school. Then they have created a precedent they probably can’t repeat the next year, but people are going to say “but you did it for Hotandsunny’s child last year”

Princessconsuelabananahammock9 · 08/11/2023 03:17

All children have needs, but not all children have special needs.

Does your child have special needs?

My son has sn's and I require extra resources from the school to accommodate him.

If this school is already maxed out, it is reasonable to assume a child with additional needs will become lost in the shuffle as it is. Or take up too many unavailable resources.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 03:24

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 08/11/2023 01:17

OP, kindly, it’s none of your business what they do with classrooms in the school. Oversubscribed isn’t just about Real estate, there’s many more complexities. Your question was not appropriate as it could come across as arrogant with you giving the impression you don’t think they’re doing things very well. From your perspective they’re not, but you aren’t, and don’t need to be privy to all the plans and arrangements for everything the school does.

Avoiding the question is a social habit for situations where the person can’t say ‘stop fucking asking, mind yer own’ or doesn’t want to come across as rude, so they just go vague news. I’m a bit obsessed with where people live, and really have to hold myself back from trying to nail them down to their Road etc. I’m fascinated with houses and people’s decor.

It’s just more of the unwritten rule thing. If the answer is vague it prob means that’s all you’re getting.

I'm sorry, but it's entirely relevant. What else aside from staffing is part 1 about? I've taken advise so knew what I needed to ask. Everyone else was asking on this theme too. Would you literally go into an appeal for your DC and not engage with the whole first part in case the school thinks I think they aren't doing very well. I mean I obviously think they are doing well otherwise why would I want my DD to go there! I'd love to know what your argument for the first part of the appeal would be? And why you'd go through an appeal process for a school you don't think is doing well??

The school actually must give information to a parent regarding the school beforehand. Not sure if that is the case during the appeal but if so 'mind yet own' isn't appropriate. There was some information I asked for that she didn't want me to know but the clerk said she had to tell me.

OP posts:
Autiebibliophile · 08/11/2023 03:27

I'm AA too. I think people who don't answer questions by giving another answer either don't know the answer and are trying to cover up or they don't want to answer as it confirms your point. I would have said something like " so based on your answer there is enough room" (or words to that affect) basically making up an answer in the same way they made up an answer.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 03:28

halesie · 08/11/2023 01:31

Damian Milton's double empathy problem is well worth looking up, both for autistic and non-autistic people. It may be especially useful for those of you who have autistic relatives and are finding it a struggle to communicate effectively with each other.

OP, good luck with the appeal. We're trying to get a place at a specialist school for one of our DC atm and are expecting the response to be that the suitable schools are "full", even though that isn't a valid reason to turn a child with an EHCP away. So I suspect I may be asking similar questions soon Grin

Thank you and good luck to you!

The default point is they are full and if everyone just accepted that there would be no appeals.

I'm sure some posters think I should have meekly gone to the appeal. Listened to the school's case that they are full and then just said 'ok, thank you' and left 😂

OP posts:
SkinnyMalinkyLankyLegs · 08/11/2023 03:36

The school told you they were full, so why did you continue to push for information?

I have a friend who does this - she's told no, but she asks for more and more information to try and find a 'solution' to get her own way.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 03:38

MrsTerryPratchett · 08/11/2023 01:32

I suspect this is part of it.

OP I often have clients asking me pages of questions about process at work. Many of them are ND and/or trauma impacted. I have about 4000 clients. I simply don't have time to respond to every single query (many of which are irrelevant and/or appear to be designed to try to get me to vary the procedures). People feel that I am not answering. For example, someone asks about a process. I say, "sorry you aren't eligible for that process". I'm right. I then get queries about the policy. I send the policy. They query a completely irrelevant piece and say, "you didn't do this". Well, no I didn't but it wouldn't make any difference to eligibility. They want a meeting to discuss it. Taking more time. I give a list of reasons it won't make a difference. They nitpick one of the reasons, they aren't interested in the other 19 which preclude them. They want this in writing, double spaced, in 18 font, notarised. I supply it, taking hours of my time. They then escalate to my boss, the Board, the MP, taking more time. Pointing out the irrelevancies.

At the very beginning of the process, I'd actually like to say, "I'm right, you aren't eligible, I'm the expert and all of this effort is for nothing" but I can't because of customer service standards.

I suspect the school feels they can't meet your child's needs, they don't have capacity and they have many reasons. Room size was floated because it's the least contentious. You think it's the one to deal with. It's not.

Show quote history

I don't know how much experience you have with school appeals but you're barking up the wrong tree. The school follows an admission process, children with additional needs are not precluded from this. The school was full before they got to where DD was in the admission criteria.

It turns out my DD was actually put in the wrong place so should have been offered a place.

The school has to put the case forward that they are full. So obviously classrooms, class size, staff is talked about. This is completely standard and happens as a group with other parents who are appealing.

OP posts:
daylightplease · 08/11/2023 03:39

To be fair to OP the whole point of an appeal is that you continue to push after the school has said "No, we are full".
It is why the appeal system was created. Any individual applicant may be turned down but they are supposed to be asking for special consideration.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 03:40

daylightplease · 08/11/2023 01:41

There wasn't really that dynamic as the teacher seemed out of her depth and the panel and clerk were having to help her. They're meant to be impartial.

I would argue that the teacher may well have been personally out of depth but she had more power in the meeting due to her status.

The fact the other impartial people helped her would support that for me.

Yes, that makes sense.

OP posts:
SkinnyMalinkyLankyLegs · 08/11/2023 03:43

daylightplease · 08/11/2023 03:39

To be fair to OP the whole point of an appeal is that you continue to push after the school has said "No, we are full".
It is why the appeal system was created. Any individual applicant may be turned down but they are supposed to be asking for special consideration.

Yes but there is a difference between pushing for something and bulldozing people; the latter sounds like what the OP was trying to do, even though I appreciate that she may not understand that that's how her behaviour was coming across.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 03:47

Schlurp · 08/11/2023 01:45

At risk of annoying you, are you actually wanting to chat about the general point re communication styles, or address the specific problem of getting an answer re the rooms?

We had quite a bruising experience with the LA going through the EHCP process. Nothing to do with autism at all, they just completely stonewall all emails from parents. The answer wasn't adapting our communication style, it was forcing their hand by sending IPSEA letters reminding them of legal obligations, submitting multiple formal complaints and a Subject Access Request. Although not identical, you do have a kind of similar adversarial situation going on. I wonder if the problem is more about that than the fact that it's an autistic person making a request of an NT person. It's definitely the case that shorter emails and quick tasks are more likely to get a response, especially from SLT who will probably have a lot of emails incoming every day. But sometimes it's more structural.

But perhaps that is me being annoyingly NT and answering a different question from the one you asked!

I would say it's worth spelling out to him why you feel he is obliged to answer your question, preferably quoting from an appeals code or somesuch, and phrase it so it is as easy to digest and as simple to execute as you can.

This doesn't annoy me. I wanted to chat about the general point but it's been taken over with me being quizzed about the appeal. So I'm happy to talk about both.

But thanks for your experience. It sounds very intense.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 03:55

Myotherdogsanoodle · 08/11/2023 02:21

I think most PPs are failing to understand the point the Op is making. This isn’t about a conversation or casual questions, she’s talking about an appeal hearing. That’s why she wants her specific questions answered. I’m not autistic and I would too, why wouldn’t you? It seems to me, OP, that the school is trying to fudge the issue as they don’t have a particularly valid explanation. I would be annoyed to and (like Jeremy Paxman that time!) keep asking the questions!

Thank you. Yes, the teacher was trying to fudge some of the issues which was why I had to ask some specific questions. Thanks for explaining that perhaps others will understand now.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 03:59

mrsmingleton · 08/11/2023 02:22

You title is suggesting that because you are autistic people give you answers that are generalised? How would everyone know you are autistic?

Or are you asking other autistic people if they find answers that they get not suitable because they are autistic?

I'm asking autistic people if they find when they ask a specific question they just get a general answer. And many on this thread said they have had this experience too.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 04:12

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 08/11/2023 02:28

OP, yes, it’s a tactic, a tactic to say ‘butt out, there’s more complexity to this than you know, and we are not obliged to go into every teeny detail of how our school works’.

There may be others with just as compelling reasons to appeal as yours. A standard answer shuts the door, and prevents unfairness. There ARE student/teacher ratios, legal ones. If there are any SEND issues that ratio is even more stretched. It’s not just about how big each room is, or if you feel they’re not using them effectively. Your autism is making you only accept the situation as you see it, and you would carry on nitpicking even if they gave you the detail. They have their structure and policies and they can’t breach them. It sucks, but you have to accept the outcome.

You aren’t getting where you are overstepping boundaries, and ironically you are undermining your chance of getting a place were one to come up.

How do you know it's more complexity than I know?

Is the butt out also thrown at the panel asking the same/similar questions and the other non-autistic parent's?

How do you know I made a sole argument on room size? What makes you think I argued no other points?

You've invented a story.

Why do you think appeals exist if they 'can't breach them'? What outcome have I not accepted? How am I seeing the situation wrongly due to my autism?

I've not overstepped any boundaries and I thought you would know, as you know about all your procedures school places are not based on how much we like mum!!

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 04:19

MoonriseKingdom · 08/11/2023 02:42

The problem with using 6th form numbers as a point of your appeal is that this is not a static figure. They are currently undersubscribed but they could be full come September or the year after. Admitting an extra child to Year 7 could give a big issue further down the line. Do they then have to refuse some children entry into sixth form because they can only be in the smaller classrooms?

Yes but so much is static. How many teachers you have, how many pupils. You u can obviously only argue based on how things are now and the very short term future. But from what the teacher told us they've got lots of space available in the small classrooms. The clerk then stepped in because he obviously didn't think she was doing a good enough job at fighting her case. Then she tried to do a u turn and just kept contradicting herself.

OP posts:
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