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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

If you are autistic do people often not answer the question you are asking but give a more generalised answer?

389 replies

Hotandsunny · 07/11/2023 22:20

Just a thought that came to mind. I often find when I ask people questions about something very specific they don't seem to get it and just give you a general answer. I don't know what it is. But I have oftenish been in a situation where people just don't seem to understand what you are asking. So I was wondering if it was an autistic thing.

The example from today was I was doing a school appeal and the school had sent a list of rooms and room sizes as evidence that the school was full. I tried to question the school about what the different rooms were used for, about class sizes and what rooms the 6th form used. All the deputy head could do was repeat that Y7 was full.

I say you haven't answered my question and ask again and get the same reply. A member of the panel says to me I just don't like the reply I'm getting. I don't, because it doesn't answer my question.

This isn't an isolated incident by a long shot.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 01:32

daylightplease · 07/11/2023 23:46

In terms of answering questions it is also important to understand the power dynamics.

You want something that a state resource has.
This gives them more power in the conversation, they have a wanted thing and they are a state backed body.

It is socially expected that that the person with the most power in the conversation will have more control over it.

Hmm..interesting.

There wasn't really that dynamic as the teacher seemed out of her depth and the panel and clerk were having to help her. They're meant to be impartial.

OP posts:
halesie · 08/11/2023 01:34

(And many allistic teachers really don't understand autism IME.)

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 01:37

feedyourheed · 07/11/2023 23:46

I have this all the time, so much so that I've mentioned it to others to see if it happens to them.

A good example of when it happens to me is in an academic setting, say at uni. Others will ask a question and the tutor answers what they asked. I ask a question (very specific and nuanced) and they NEVER answer what I am actually asking about. I used to try to clarify, and clarify but they never 'get' it. So frustrating.

It's like people have an idea of what they think I am asking and answer that instead of thinking about the very precise thing I am querying. But it doesn't seem to happen to others, so I have to think it's just me (strong ASD traits with 2 autistic children here).

There are lots of other examples, and usually it's people doing a job rather than family that misunderstand me. It also happens when I write a post about something and people pick up on something I didn't even mean or imply. I get tired of trying to say - no, you're wrong. I didn't say nor mean that.

Oh absolutely this is exactly it. It's feels like they're never really listening at a deeper level and then we get frustrated because they're not answering our question and they get frustrated because they think they are!!

It's definitely an autistic thing to look at things in fine detail and I think this leads from that. So many autistic people recognise this.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 01:40

RelationshipOrNot · 07/11/2023 23:49

I also really agree with this and forgot to include it in my reply! It has taken me DECADES to understand that not everyone is "allowed" an equal say in all meetings or situations, and even now having thought about it a lot, I still slip up in the heat of the moment.

Show quote history

So is that the case for a school appeal? A parent should take a back seat?

It contradicts all the advice given to me by specialists in this area, as does people telling me not to mention 6th form etc.

OP posts:
daylightplease · 08/11/2023 01:41

There wasn't really that dynamic as the teacher seemed out of her depth and the panel and clerk were having to help her. They're meant to be impartial.

I would argue that the teacher may well have been personally out of depth but she had more power in the meeting due to her status.

The fact the other impartial people helped her would support that for me.

daylightplease · 08/11/2023 01:42

It doesn't mean you shouldn't push OP it just realistically reduces the chances of you being successful.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 01:43

PlantMum23 · 07/11/2023 23:50

Op, I think you are getting caught up by what it means for a school to be “full”

Yes, I could theoretically cram some
more kids into some of my classes. However, the classes with “room” in them might have a higher proportion of kids with ASN (who would be negatively impacted by a larger class size)
There is probably enough rooms in the school to throw in a full other class, by splitting up current classes. However, we are already working at our maximum number of contact periods, therefore it wouldn’t be possible to staff it.
Rooms also have different purposes. I could probably take my older kids to a smaller room; however the technical resources I need for my lesson are in my classroom - and I also use it with another lot of pupils where the class size is too large to use the smaller room
(and the equipment is large and heavy, so can’t be moved safely)
It is also on my risk assessment that I’m only allowed to teach on the same floor as my classroom due to an injury.

But I haven't argued that. I have spoken about corridors and communal facilities. I've been given advice on this so my arguments are sound. But whatever I have to argue against this because that's what an appeal is all about.

OP posts:
Schlurp · 08/11/2023 01:45

At risk of annoying you, are you actually wanting to chat about the general point re communication styles, or address the specific problem of getting an answer re the rooms?

We had quite a bruising experience with the LA going through the EHCP process. Nothing to do with autism at all, they just completely stonewall all emails from parents. The answer wasn't adapting our communication style, it was forcing their hand by sending IPSEA letters reminding them of legal obligations, submitting multiple formal complaints and a Subject Access Request. Although not identical, you do have a kind of similar adversarial situation going on. I wonder if the problem is more about that than the fact that it's an autistic person making a request of an NT person. It's definitely the case that shorter emails and quick tasks are more likely to get a response, especially from SLT who will probably have a lot of emails incoming every day. But sometimes it's more structural.

But perhaps that is me being annoyingly NT and answering a different question from the one you asked!

I would say it's worth spelling out to him why you feel he is obliged to answer your question, preferably quoting from an appeals code or somesuch, and phrase it so it is as easy to digest and as simple to execute as you can.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 01:47

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 07/11/2023 23:50

@RelationshipOrNot

I think you have explained precisely what has happened here.

also : if the OP had been as tenacious in her demands to the panel for what appears to most people to be irrelevant information as she has been in her responses to her original post, the ‘reluctance’ to engage with this point is understandable.

(I expect they wanted to go home sometime that night.)

The meeting would have been much quicker if they answered the question the first time and didn't have to be asked 3 times after saying their pat phrase each time. A member of panel had the same issue, he gave up on his question after asking 3 times. I then took it up and on the second time of asking she finally answered it. Maybe his questions were irrelevant to?

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 01:50

feedyourheed · 07/11/2023 23:53

Also to add as someone who has been through two (LA conceded) SEND tribunals for schools, I totally get why you need that very specific information and I have acquired and used similar information myself. SEND tribunals DO want to know where there is space in the school, if new classrooms can be formed, if extra children can be accommodated with additional funds (where there is physical space).

The school probably knows this hence their being obstructive. A tribunal could look at the answers to those questions and decide that space can be found, so I get where you are coming from, whereas others in this thread won't have that experience or know why the questions are very relevant.

Yes, it's very obvious that most people on this thread have no clue about these school appeals. Thank you for backing me up.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 01:52

NotMyCircusAnymore · 08/11/2023 00:00

Severe Borderline PD, OCD and complex PTSD.

Show quote history

So it would seem to be a neuro divergent thing then.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 01:55

Boomboom22 · 08/11/2023 00:01

Its not very clear what you mean or how it could be relevant though. Sixth form is separate so their numbers are irrelevant. Quieter corridors can be made as a point but doesn't follow really as sixth form have frees, possibly leave the site, can be late etc.
Also why do you keep saying school teacher? Teachers are not involved in any appeals, governor, head and the panel not teachers.

I think I've answered this enough. The specialists I spoke to see it as relevant as did others at the appeal today. There was a deputy head teacher giving the school's case. So teachers must be involved.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 02:04

MyGooseisTotallyLoose · 08/11/2023 00:02

So whatever they do/say isn't good enough unless you get the answer you want?
If you're not hearing what you want the staff are either sly or out of their depth can't imagine why you're not someone they're Jumping through fire hoops to admit to their school!

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I think you're being very unkind. My DD has been through a lot and still is. This is the school that can meet her needs. This is really important to her.

I also think it's just a bit mean to criticise me about my autism in a thread I started to ask people with autism a question. They can see it from my point of view. And due to that agree with me.

I don't mind what they say as long as they actually answer the question. It has been suggested on here by more than one person that not answering can be used as a tactic. She certainly omitted mentioning things that would support my case. I think in general though she was a bit out of her depth and didn't know how to answer a lot of questions from me and others. The panel and clerk had to keep helping her which I'm sure isn't allowed.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 02:08

JaninaDuszejko · 08/11/2023 00:05

NT people answer the perceived subtext. That's not always an exact answer to the precise words in a question.
Answering constant questions is exhausting and makes a conversation unbalanced. I have a work colleague who told a group of us we were just talking about ourselves, completely missing that we were sharing information and making connections. He never shares information, it makes him come across as untrustworthy.
People don't have to answer your questions, even in a formal situation.

But if you're in an appeal at the point everyone gets to ask their questions, you can"t be too surprised that there will be a lot of questions and that there will be a expectation they are answered and if you refuse to do so it will affect your case plus make you look pretty unprofessional.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 02:12

AGoodDayForSomebodyElseToDie · 08/11/2023 00:07

If the school felt the OP’s question was irrelevant, they would have been better to say so rather than answer a question of their own invention. An explanation of why the information was irrelevant (if it was) would have resolved the issue quickly and clearly instead of frustrating the OP and making it appear as if they don’t want to engage openly with the appeals process.

This sort of thing drives me mad too, OP. It’s poor communication and a waste of everyone’s time. Just answer the question, or explain why you don’t think it’s relevant.

Thank you! I agree with that so much. It makes things much quicker to either answer the question or explain why you can't won't. But honestly keeping on repeating the same very basic information is not just frustrating but feels condescending too.

OP posts:
WednesdaysChild50 · 08/11/2023 02:12

I’m ND and I’m very anal, I like clear facts, firm answers. Everything has to be clear cut.

Disturbia81 · 08/11/2023 02:15

EveSix · 07/11/2023 23:39

My, this thread is eye-opening.

DP (ND) can be like this at times of heightened anxiety; asking very specific questions and expecting answers which fall precisely within his expected parameters. He gets bothered if, within the first couple of syllables of responding, it looks like an answer might be other than expected.

Example:

DP: "Are we going out straight after Dan comes home from football?"

Expected answer: yes or no.

Usual context: Dan always comes home from football at 18:30.

New, unknown to DP, development: Dan's lift has bailed so he'll be walking home, ETA 19:00.

Reasonable reply by me: "Dan just messaged me. His lift has bailed so he'll be walking home, ETA 19:00. We'll leave straight after that."

DP: (usually by the time I've hit the 3rd unexpected word) "Oh my days, just 'yes' or 'no', that's aaaaaall I ask! exasperated sigh", failing to take in the change of circumstance.

Lots of situations like these:
"Are we taking the A59 or shall we go up Houghton Way?"
(I've checked traffic updates and seen delays which promt considering a 3rd route, so I venture:)
"I've just checked the AA traffic updates, and as there are severe delays on both those routes, I'd suggest -"
"Jeesus, what is wrong with just answering the question the way I've asked it!? A59 or Houghton Way!?", again missing relevant information.

It is a deep reluctance to acknowledge that communication is a two-way process where both parties, unless one is under interrogation in a witness box, are able to respond with a reasonable degree of autonomy. I get furious with him -I don't owe him comms compliance-, but remind myself that he processes language so differently to anyone I know (paradoxically, he's an inspired lyricist and poet).

This is exhausting. How on earth do you live with this negativity and backchat! Life is too short

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 02:17

feedyourheed · 08/11/2023 00:10

Interesting view - I am like your colleague. Don't really talk much about myself except to close friends. I have acquaintances that as soon as I stop to talk to them bombard me with all sorts of random bits of stuff from their everyday lives. I find it insane to be honest, and realise that's why I have never been able to do small talk. I just really, really don't want to assault someone else with the minutiae of my life and it wouldn't even occur to me to verbalise it.

I hope people don't find me untrustworthy because I really just can't, and don't want, to do it.

I also agree about NT people and subtext. They think everyone thinks like them, so they answer questions on that basis. Some of us have different brains and have queries that help US to understand something.

Edited
Show quote history

That is such a good point.

I think NT people think about what they would need to know to understand the situation. But yes, maybe ND people need something different. Maybe we need something more. God forbid we might want a nuanced or complex question answered. But we have different needs and that's ok.

OP posts:
Myotherdogsanoodle · 08/11/2023 02:21

I think most PPs are failing to understand the point the Op is making. This isn’t about a conversation or casual questions, she’s talking about an appeal hearing. That’s why she wants her specific questions answered. I’m not autistic and I would too, why wouldn’t you? It seems to me, OP, that the school is trying to fudge the issue as they don’t have a particularly valid explanation. I would be annoyed to and (like Jeremy Paxman that time!) keep asking the questions!

mrsmingleton · 08/11/2023 02:22

You title is suggesting that because you are autistic people give you answers that are generalised? How would everyone know you are autistic?

Or are you asking other autistic people if they find answers that they get not suitable because they are autistic?

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 02:25

Ger1atricMillennial · 08/11/2023 00:21

Pop yourself in the shoes of the school OP. You are essentially asking the school to provide you with a detailed plan of their day-to-day operations. That would be a huge undertaking for someone who may not have a good understanding of how a school operates so essentially not a good use of their (clearly limited) resources

The reason people don't answer questions is because;

  1. They have already given a satisfactory response i.e. the ration of children to classrooms
  2. They weren't listening to the question properly
  3. Answering the question will incur more questions.
  4. Private information of the people or business deals involved.
  5. The question you are asking is too specific to your circumstances rather than about the system
  6. It's a lot of work to answer the question and you are not a priority for them.
  7. The answer relies on having specialist knowledge.
Edited

Where have I said I want a detailed plan of their day to day operations? 😂

I mean I think some of the questions she didn't answer because she really wasn't listening and thought her set phrase was a satisfactory answer. But there were questions that she obviously didn't have the knowledge for and the clerk and 1 panel member had to step in. I think she should have prepared better as I don't think the clerk and panel member are meant to be helping.

OP posts:
DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 08/11/2023 02:28

OP, yes, it’s a tactic, a tactic to say ‘butt out, there’s more complexity to this than you know, and we are not obliged to go into every teeny detail of how our school works’.

There may be others with just as compelling reasons to appeal as yours. A standard answer shuts the door, and prevents unfairness. There ARE student/teacher ratios, legal ones. If there are any SEND issues that ratio is even more stretched. It’s not just about how big each room is, or if you feel they’re not using them effectively. Your autism is making you only accept the situation as you see it, and you would carry on nitpicking even if they gave you the detail. They have their structure and policies and they can’t breach them. It sucks, but you have to accept the outcome.

You aren’t getting where you are overstepping boundaries, and ironically you are undermining your chance of getting a place were one to come up.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 02:31

EveSix · 08/11/2023 00:34

With regard to the question you asked, OP (although I predictably find the general premise of your post more interesting), schools have a PAN, a published admissions number, for admissions to Reception, Y7 and Y12. Once they meet PAN, they're full, irrespective of how pupil numbers are arranged in individual classes within the year group. There are guidelines for maximum numbers of pupils in a class, but the bottom line is the PAN for the year group. I am willing to bet that this is what the person referred to when he said, without qualifying why, that Y7 was 'full'. A school proposes each academic year's PAN to the LA well in advance, and it is on this basis that places are offered each March.

Edited to insert a space.

Edited

Yes, thank you, I'm aware of all that. The point you go to appeal is when the PAN has been reached. That's why your DC hasn't got a place so that's a given. There was no need for the teacher to constantly repeat a given. Obviously, you have to argue that the school can admit one more pupil. You do this by looking at class sizes etc.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 02:36

IBlinkThereforeIAm · 08/11/2023 00:37

Lol. Then in future for Q&A sessions the audience should receive in advance a pre-approved list of questions that the presenters deem worthy of an answer.

Somewhat defeats to purpose of the meeting...

Show quote history

I know it is so illogical. It just doesn't make sense.

We now want you to ask the school questions. They won't however answer them! 😂

OP posts:
MoonriseKingdom · 08/11/2023 02:42

The problem with using 6th form numbers as a point of your appeal is that this is not a static figure. They are currently undersubscribed but they could be full come September or the year after. Admitting an extra child to Year 7 could give a big issue further down the line. Do they then have to refuse some children entry into sixth form because they can only be in the smaller classrooms?