Page 11 | If you are autistic do people often not answer the question you are asking but give a more generalised answer?

Hotandsunny · 2023-11-07T22:20:34+00:00

Just a thought that came to mind. I often find when I ask people questions about something very specific they don't seem to get it and just give you a general answer. I don't know what it is. But I have oftenish been in a situation where people just don't seem to understand what you are asking. So I was wondering if it was an autistic thing. The example from today was I was doing a school appeal and the school had sent a list of rooms and room sizes as evidence that the school was full. I tried to question the school about what the different rooms were used for, about class sizes and what rooms the 6th form used. All the deputy head could do was repeat that Y7 was full. I say you haven't answered my question and ask again and get the same reply. A member of the panel says to me I just don't like the reply I'm getting. I don't, because it doesn't answer my question. This isn't an isolated incident by a long shot.

cardibach · 08/11/2023 15:25

Amazingly quick decision…

RelationshipOrNot · 08/11/2023 15:30

Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 15:21

They're not really doing their job then because they are meant to argue how the school can't take another pupil.

Show quote history

Yes, I'm not saying they're doing a good job, that might just be how they perceive it - that they can just show evidence for being full and assume that it will be accepted without engaging in discussion.

Well done on winning!

Londonscallingme · 08/11/2023 15:32

Hotandsunny · 07/11/2023 23:48

So what's the point of the appeal if the school refuse to engage in it?

Show quote history

My guess is that they have to offer an appeals process but they not willing to engage with you on this line of questioning. There is an obvious path your question takes them down and they would rather shut it down immediately. I’m not saying they are right to do that but the premise that they will answer all questions fully just because they are compelled to offer an appeals process is probably not valid.

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 15:38

ManateeFair · 08/11/2023 12:33

I'm wondering whether perhaps your questions might seem clearer and more relevant to you than they do to other people? Maybe you're making assumptions that people understand your thought processes, when they're actually not obvious to others?

I used to work with a colleague who was autistic and would regularly complain that people weren't answering his questions.

However, his questions were often actually irrelevant to the discussion. For example, if we explained that we couldn't do something for him because our team was too busy, he would then ask questions about how busy a completely different team was. To which our answer was either 'No idea, and it doesn't matter anyway because the point here is that WE are too busy and we're the team that would deal with your request' or 'I think most teams are pretty busy at the moment, aren't they?'

This is very similar to you asking a question about sixth form capacity and what different rooms are used for. Your child is applying for a place in Y7. It doesn't actually matter what rooms the sixth forms use, because your child isn't entering sixth form. And they can't kick out any existing pupils in other years to make room for your child. They might have 10 places available in (for example) Y9, but that doesn't matter because your child is not entering Y9 and they can't move places from one year to another; that's not how it works. So I think they didn't answer your question about sixth form room use because it was tangential to the discussion at hand and gathering that information for you would make absolutely no difference to your case, and would be a waste of their time and yours.

My former colleague would also sometimes ask questions or make points in a way that no doubt seemed very clear to him, but weren't always very clear to other people. He basically struggled to grasp that just because he had certain information available to him, that didn't mean everyone else had that same information as well. He just assumed that if he knew something, everyone else must know it too - eg he would regularly make allusions to his favourite TV show and then be miffed when none of us got the reference, despite the fact that we had told him many times that we didn't watch it and therefore didn't know what he was talking about. That tendency meant that questions that were clear in his eyes were not actually clear to others, and therefore the answers he got weren't the information he was looking for.

Yes, that's possible. I did try to explain. And the panel members were asking on similar themes. And I suppose to me what she was saying seemed irrelevant!

It wasn't just me asking about 6th form and it was a question I was advised to ask regarding communal areas. It was also not just me struggling to get answers but I'm sure these things played into it being harder for me to communicate. I did ask for reasonable adjustments but wasn't given them.

OP posts:

enchantedsquirrelwood · 08/11/2023 15:41

Bruisername · 07/11/2023 22:39

No - it’s a way of saying your question is irrelevant and doesn’t need to be answered

Show quote history

In their opinion. They know what you are trying to get at - are there other areas of the school that could be utilised for Y7s and they don't want to answer in case it weakens their position, even if it doesn't. Or it will take too much effort to provide the information.

In terms of the wider point, I wonder if autistic people in the UK have a harder time of it due to the British habit of talking round the houses about everything. The example of "what time are we going out" and "DH comes home at 6" is a case in point - you are then meant to imply that we'll be going out just after 6 but is that actually the case - does he want a shower, does he need to get changed, does he fancy a glass of wine with you before you all go out etc.

enchantedsquirrelwood · 08/11/2023 15:43

I am in a running club and an autistic lady joined recently and I try to make sure that I give her very clear answers when she asks about things. I am sure that she still thinks I am very vague at times, or still go around the houses, but I do try!

toddlepod · 08/11/2023 16:04

Absolutely get this! My H does this when he thinks he knows where I’m going with a question and thinks he’s short circuiting by his reading -between- the -lines interpretation. Trouble is, he gets it wrong too often and fries my head with the illogicality of his response.

I hear judge Judy snapping at plaintiffs and defendants to answer her question and either stop editorialising or anticipating a line of questioning… or stop trying to re-direct to a narrative they prefer to present. I can only marvel that her head doesn’t explode.

SkinnyMalinkyLankyLegs · 08/11/2023 16:18

Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 14:11

But you were shocked that I asked questions after the school said it was full. But that's what an appeal is. How was I 'bulldozing' by asking pertinent questions? Do you think the panel were also 'bulldozing' by asking similar questions?

Show quote history

"But" what? No, I wasn't "shocked".

As I say, you're not taking anything that people are saying on board, so what's the point in wasting time discussing this with you any further....

InattentiveADHD · 08/11/2023 17:06

I am not autistic but have ADHD and agree with you. I think in the circumstance you describe they are being deliberately vague but a lot of times NTs do not seem to answer a question as asked. I am so careful to read a question and answer exactly what I believe is being asked. If I don't want answer I'll say that rather than give some vague answer. Just say what you bloody mean!! I would have been like you, saying back to them that they haven't answered my question whereas if they say they don't want answer then I'm clear there that info is being refused.

I also have a problem with NT questions which similarly are often vague or the options you have to answer don't fit the question or there is no answer that even closely fits how I would answer. Drives me insane.

I think NTs are better at reading between the lines and are happy to go with "well they sort of mean this, so I'll answer x" (gaging questioned by DH about it). I find it bizarre that most people are wandering round with just a vague sense of what's going on and are perfectly happy like that!. I need specifics and details!

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 17:10

Highlandsprocker · 08/11/2023 12:50

He just assumed that if he knew something, everyone else must know it too - eg he would regularly make allusions to his favourite TV show and then be miffed when none of us got the reference, despite the fact that we had told him many times that we didn't watch it and therefore didn't know what he was talking about
This is called Poor Theory of Mind.

This is how the Op is coming across, fixating on the set up of the school and repeating this despite being told year 7 is full.
The appeal is not to argue whether the school is full or not ,it's to put forward the case of why this school is the only one that meets the DCs needs.

I'm confused though.
If the Ops DC has no specific SEN that mean they were on the general admissions list, why does Op think they were put in this group incorrectly?

The first part of the appeal is to argue against the school being full.
The second part is about how your DC. I don't make the rules that's the way it is.

There was a question about if she'd been put in the correct group for admission. As in for example DC with a sibling at the school are in a different group to those without.

OP posts:

InattentiveADHD · 08/11/2023 17:16

mimblewimble · 07/11/2023 22:54

Hi OP, I have an autistic child and this sounds quite familiar to me but from the other side. He often gets frustrated with me because I have not answered his questions.

From my perspective, he asks a lot of questions about very specific details, which I don't always have the energy or headspace to answer and which to me seem irrelevant to the situation.

When he pushes it, it feels as if he is trying to corner me or get me to slip up on some detail so he can prove a point. However, he maintains that he just likes to/needs to know information so that he understands.

I wouldn't assume that the details he needs are irrelevant. I need a lot of detail to understand things. My DH doesn't. I see this play out at work also, most people seem happy with a vague sense of something (in my mind!) but I need ALL the detail to understand something, to establish whether I agree with something, to work out how it fits into everything else, to remember it. Some of that detail hey be irrelevant to you but it's not to me. Without the detail it's incredibly confusing and sometimes stressful as i don't understand it and won't be able to commit to memory (if that's needed). A good analogy is maths: if one bit of the detail is missing you won't understand any of it and are likely to be lost going forward with future maths topics as the foundation isn't there. That's how my brain works, and it sounds the same for your DS.

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 17:18

Tobacco · 08/11/2023 12:57

Im sure you wouldn't want to send your child to a school where the teachers were prone to lying, so in that case why not believe the teacher who is telling you the school is full? It sounds a ball ache to have to give details to prove the school is full rather than you just accepting they are not lying. Maybe the teacher wants to spend their time on the kids in the school rather than time wasting stuff to prove to people outside the school that they aren't liars.

Where have I said the teachers were lying?

And again I don't make the rules for an appeal, do I? They have to prove they are full, it may be a ball ache but that's what an appeal is. And why would I put an appeal forward and then not engage in it? Surely, that's more a waste of time. So we go to appeal and the school argues they are full and then the panel asks them lots of questions and asks them to prove they are full, then they ask me to question the school and I just say no, it's ok, I don't actually want to do an appeal. Huge waste of time for everyone.

I'm not sure everyone realises it is a given that the school believe they are full otherwise my DC would have been admitted. It's not a suprise at the appeal that they tell you they are full and you say oh I didn't realise in that case that's fine, don't admit my DC!

Maybe they don't want to do appeals in which case they should take it up with the LA rather than a parent going through due process!

OP posts:

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 17:19

DarkWingDuck · 08/11/2023 13:15

Neurotypical people do tend to talk their decision making out loud and also jump into talking about a topic without recognising the question being asked. I’m ND and I find it quite confusing and frustrating. My NT husband finds me pedantic and rude at times when I insist on a simple and concise answer to what I think is a simple and clear question.

Yes, I think it is frustrating on both sides!

OP posts:

InattentiveADHD · 08/11/2023 17:21

TheYearOfSmallThings · 07/11/2023 23:02

Yes, I ask a very precise question because I want a precise answer.

The thing is, people don't have to communicate on your terms. You could ask a thousand questions about room size, and they could waste a lot of time answering questions that will have no bearing on the outcome, or they can fob you off rather than get into that cycle.

But fobbing off doesn't work as we just keep asking! With both parties getting more frustrated and annoyed. Why don't they just say "I don't want to answer your question" or "I can't answer your question" or "I don't think your question is relevant". So much clearer and easier to understand. Why all the fannying about with vaguely answering a different question to the one asked. And people wonder why ND people struggle with communication! Supposedly autistic people are the ones bad at communication!?!. I would argue is the NTs with all this vague bollocks that need to up their game!!

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 17:25

Boomboom22 · 08/11/2023 14:34

Again, the appeal goes forward to your reasons why it would be more detrimental for your child not to get a place than for the school to go over pan. If they applied the criteria correctly you can't really argue this bit and the vast majority of appeals that are won are when you show more detriment to your child than the school exceeding pan.
I think you are muddling correct application of the admissions criteria to sen needs and general appeal when you didn't get your first choice which it seems you are doing as your reason.
Unless you are going to say now your child has an ehcp and you named this school but they didn't apply the criteria correctly.

You've fixated on part 1 which is usually irrelevant.

No, my DC doesn't have an ECHP. I know the appeal goes on to that.

My post was not about that. I gave a very small bit of information about the first part of the appeal. But as I have said there was a question around if they applied the criteria correctly. Nothing to do with SEN.

I did not fixate on part 1. It was clearly not irrelevant to the panel that had many questions. But posters have derailed my thread to talk about the bit of information I gave about the first part so I'm answering their questions!

OP posts:

GoodnightGentlemen · 08/11/2023 17:25

Fionaville · 07/11/2023 22:40

In this situation I think a general answer is acceptable. Listing what each room is used for would be both a waste of her time and a pointless exercise. The year is full. It doesn't matter which room is used for English and maths etc
My adult autistic son often asks me very specific questions that are pointless. Nothing that is going to gain any knowledge (I'll always find out how many dogs there are in the UK for example, because we are both information nerds) More things specific to his/our situations that are hard to answer and won't help. He gets very annoyed when I am vague. Even if I say "I dont know" he cant accept that and asks me to guess. But some questions just don't have an easy answer. I think perhaps it's an autistic issue around not getting the answer you want/a specific answer. Rather than a people being too general/vague problem.

Edited

. I think perhaps it's an autistic issue around not getting the answer you want/a specific answer.

not sure it is that, I think it’s more the need to have all the information, the ‘full picture’.

So @Bruisername says the question was irrelevant, which is true in the sense that were 6th formers do English isn’t relevant to whether there is space in year 7- but it doesn’t feel irrelevant to the person asking it.

My son and my brother are both autistic and have adhd and they are both obsessed with the minutiae of situations- so if we are going for dinner and xyz are meeting us at the restaurant they will ask why? Where have they been? What time are we meeting? Are they driving or getting a taxi? Do xyz know where the restaurant is? Do they know what type of restaurant it is? Do they know what time to meet us? Etc.

It isn’t that they want a specific answer, they just can’t relax until they know everything connected with an event even if it seems obvious or unnecessary for them to know.

InattentiveADHD · 08/11/2023 17:27

Yay! Well done on winning. I bet that was your precise questioning skills and your (I assume) ability to read the detail of, and align your argument with the valid appeal reasons. And you won despite their attempted fobbing off. Well done you! 😀

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 17:27

Boomboom22 · 08/11/2023 14:35

Yes but you've taken the argument too far. 6th form is irrelevant.

Without knowing the specific school and specific school how do you know it was irrelevant? The panel didn't think it was irrelevant. The clerk didn't think it was irrelevant. The other parent didn't think it was irrelevant. Are they wrong too?

OP posts:

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 17:29

sollenwir · 08/11/2023 14:38

They understood what you were asking regarding room use, however didn't provide you with that information because how they use rooms isn't a/the only factor that will influence whether they have space to accept your child in Y7.

Of course it isn't the only factor. These situations can be complex and involve many factors. But I'm not sure how you could word a question to include all the factors in one?

OP posts:

SageLavenderThyme · 08/11/2023 17:29

Congrats @Hotandsunny !! That is great news.

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 17:48

Triplixate · 08/11/2023 14:54

Yep all the time. I get a lot of quite patronising answers that assume I don’t understand something simple. So for example, a friend of a colleague came into our shop years ago and they were excitedly talking about how said friend was a medium and colleague said “I keep finding white feathers”. I said “oh what do white feathers mean?” And they gave each other a look like “oh she’s so simple” and went on to explain what a medium was. I was like “yes I understand that but what do white feathers mean?” So then I got an explanation of something else… anyway eventually after a third attempt I learnt that some people visiting spirits leave white feathers (or something similar.. was a long time ago). It’s like people assume I’m
too thick to possibly be asking what I am asking so they go back a step (or several) and give me some random background information.

I agree with this so much! I was asking a question and she kept explaining to me the given information i.e this appeal wouldn't be happening if not for the information she was telling me. Of course I already knew that and her continuously repeating it just comes across quite rude. I'm not saying it was meant that may. I may have come across rude but I didn't mean it that way. One of the panel was getting quite frustrated on the 3rd time of asking for an answer to his question and kind of gasped in exasperation. That could have come across rude but I think we all just wanted an answer so we could move on. Of course if anyone was asking anything irrelevant then of course the chair could have said so.

OP posts:

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 17:56

cardibach · 08/11/2023 15:25

Amazingly quick decision…

How many people do you know who have won appeals? I was actually really nervous as many people told me they found out in the case they had won on the same day. The panel make their decision there and then I believe. So no rather late by the sounds of it!!

OP posts:

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 17:57

RelationshipOrNot · 08/11/2023 15:30

Yes, I'm not saying they're doing a good job, that might just be how they perceive it - that they can just show evidence for being full and assume that it will be accepted without engaging in discussion.

Well done on winning!

Show quote history

Oh, I see. Yes, perhaps. And thank you so much! Just so relieved!!

OP posts:

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 17:59

Londonscallingme · 08/11/2023 15:32

My guess is that they have to offer an appeals process but they not willing to engage with you on this line of questioning. There is an obvious path your question takes them down and they would rather shut it down immediately. I’m not saying they are right to do that but the premise that they will answer all questions fully just because they are compelled to offer an appeals process is probably not valid.

Show quote history

Ah, I see. And you're right that I took that as the premise and then got frustrated when the school didn't uphold it. Makes sense, thank you.

OP posts:

Original poster

Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 18:04

enchantedsquirrelwood · 08/11/2023 15:41

In their opinion. They know what you are trying to get at - are there other areas of the school that could be utilised for Y7s and they don't want to answer in case it weakens their position, even if it doesn't. Or it will take too much effort to provide the information.

In terms of the wider point, I wonder if autistic people in the UK have a harder time of it due to the British habit of talking round the houses about everything. The example of "what time are we going out" and "DH comes home at 6" is a case in point - you are then meant to imply that we'll be going out just after 6 but is that actually the case - does he want a shower, does he need to get changed, does he fancy a glass of wine with you before you all go out etc.

Show quote history

Yes, I understand them trying to avoid saying things that weaken their position but it makes it hard to make your case if they won't answer. Which I suppose could be their plan?

And I think you're spot on. The way people talk around the houses about everything and not being clear on an answer makes it so difficult and then at the end you still are none the wiser!

OP posts: