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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

If you are autistic do people often not answer the question you are asking but give a more generalised answer?

389 replies

Hotandsunny · 07/11/2023 22:20

Just a thought that came to mind. I often find when I ask people questions about something very specific they don't seem to get it and just give you a general answer. I don't know what it is. But I have oftenish been in a situation where people just don't seem to understand what you are asking. So I was wondering if it was an autistic thing.

The example from today was I was doing a school appeal and the school had sent a list of rooms and room sizes as evidence that the school was full. I tried to question the school about what the different rooms were used for, about class sizes and what rooms the 6th form used. All the deputy head could do was repeat that Y7 was full.

I say you haven't answered my question and ask again and get the same reply. A member of the panel says to me I just don't like the reply I'm getting. I don't, because it doesn't answer my question.

This isn't an isolated incident by a long shot.

OP posts:
DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 08/11/2023 12:11

Ironically the OP is a bit vague about this part, @cardibach. Perhaps there aren’t any that would warrant preferential treatment and so the fixation on class sizes.

QueenCamilla · 08/11/2023 12:15

RelationshipOrNot · 07/11/2023 23:40

Agreed. Becoming upset and shutting down because of plans going off-kilter is such a point of stress in my life, and no amount of rationalising can stop it happening. I guess if I could rationally think my way out of being autistic, I wouldn't be autistic anymore.

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Both of these quotes makes me once again question the ubiquitous ASD (insert slash or and here) ADHD diagnoses.

I have ADHD. I respond to questions with all the relevant information - it's like my brain lights up with excitement if there's a topic that I can expand on. Answering "yes or no" only would lead to severe discomfort for me.
I equally appreciate people who engage in conversation and don’t shut down conversations with a "yes, no, I don't know". It can make me feel like I'm talking to someone hostile (I used to hitchhike and that was one of my "serial killer" red flags 😂).

Specifics, particularly when it comes to time and organised sequence of events, give me an overwhelming sense of doom. My ex keeps a calendar with all sorts of dates and times circled in red - I dunno how it's possible to live that way, with those dreaded circles demanding attention.
In an ideal world there would be a certain degree of flexibility with the timings - we leave sometime between 1pm and 2pm - so this tightly organised life feels less like a prison.

Anyone melting down about a change in plans, would get a meltdown back. And that's where the similarities end. ADHD and ASD presentation might both share a few symptoms but surely the problematic executive functioning is impaired in two very distinct ways. That distinction should make the and/or impossible. Like saying - I have problems with my height. I'm short OR tall. I'm short AND tall.

I'm afraid that not considering the differences will lead to worse struggles for both.

Edit: I'm not saying anyone quoted is drawing the parallels - I'm just reading and thinking, christ on a bike, we are so different!

ManateeFair · 08/11/2023 12:33

I'm wondering whether perhaps your questions might seem clearer and more relevant to you than they do to other people? Maybe you're making assumptions that people understand your thought processes, when they're actually not obvious to others?

I used to work with a colleague who was autistic and would regularly complain that people weren't answering his questions.

However, his questions were often actually irrelevant to the discussion. For example, if we explained that we couldn't do something for him because our team was too busy, he would then ask questions about how busy a completely different team was. To which our answer was either 'No idea, and it doesn't matter anyway because the point here is that WE are too busy and we're the team that would deal with your request' or 'I think most teams are pretty busy at the moment, aren't they?'

This is very similar to you asking a question about sixth form capacity and what different rooms are used for. Your child is applying for a place in Y7. It doesn't actually matter what rooms the sixth forms use, because your child isn't entering sixth form. And they can't kick out any existing pupils in other years to make room for your child. They might have 10 places available in (for example) Y9, but that doesn't matter because your child is not entering Y9 and they can't move places from one year to another; that's not how it works. So I think they didn't answer your question about sixth form room use because it was tangential to the discussion at hand and gathering that information for you would make absolutely no difference to your case, and would be a waste of their time and yours.

My former colleague would also sometimes ask questions or make points in a way that no doubt seemed very clear to him, but weren't always very clear to other people. He basically struggled to grasp that just because he had certain information available to him, that didn't mean everyone else had that same information as well. He just assumed that if he knew something, everyone else must know it too - eg he would regularly make allusions to his favourite TV show and then be miffed when none of us got the reference, despite the fact that we had told him many times that we didn't watch it and therefore didn't know what he was talking about. That tendency meant that questions that were clear in his eyes were not actually clear to others, and therefore the answers he got weren't the information he was looking for.

Highlandsprocker · 08/11/2023 12:50

He just assumed that if he knew something, everyone else must know it too - eg he would regularly make allusions to his favourite TV show and then be miffed when none of us got the reference, despite the fact that we had told him many times that we didn't watch it and therefore didn't know what he was talking about
This is called Poor Theory of Mind.

This is how the Op is coming across, fixating on the set up of the school and repeating this despite being told year 7 is full.
The appeal is not to argue whether the school is full or not ,it's to put forward the case of why this school is the only one that meets the DCs needs.

I'm confused though.
If the Ops DC has no specific SEN that mean they were on the general admissions list, why does Op think they were put in this group incorrectly?

Tobacco · 08/11/2023 12:57

Im sure you wouldn't want to send your child to a school where the teachers were prone to lying, so in that case why not believe the teacher who is telling you the school is full? It sounds a ball ache to have to give details to prove the school is full rather than you just accepting they are not lying. Maybe the teacher wants to spend their time on the kids in the school rather than time wasting stuff to prove to people outside the school that they aren't liars.

DarkWingDuck · 08/11/2023 13:15

Neurotypical people do tend to talk their decision making out loud and also jump into talking about a topic without recognising the question being asked. I’m ND and I find it quite confusing and frustrating. My NT husband finds me pedantic and rude at times when I insist on a simple and concise answer to what I think is a simple and clear question.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 14:05

Neurodiversitydoctor · 08/11/2023 05:35

Sixth forms use the school quite differently often have separate common areas, won't have a fixed lunchtime and are allowed to leave the school in frees study periods.

Having space in the sixth form doesn't make room for another Yr7.

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As I've said a number of times they use the same space as the rest of the school. And it's just one part of the puzzle.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 14:08

TabithatheTabbycat · 08/11/2023 05:51

We won an appeal after our eldest DS was refused a place at our catchment school - the school was oversubscribed and we'd submitted the application a day late. We lived about 70m away from the school, and the alternative school suggested by the local authority was about 7km away.

At appeal, the school was adamant there was absolutely no space and the man from the local authority who represented the school at the appeal was quite vile to us - really nasty. I found it really upsetting.

However DH and I both had an opportunity to speak and to ask questions. My question was: how many children are there in these oversubscribed classes from outside of catchment? They refused to answer. It seemed really unfair to me that numerous children were being driven across town to go to this school, and then children living practically on its doorstep were being refused places on the basis of 'oversubscription'.

Anyway, the panel saw sense and ruled in our favour. I see nothing wrong with asking questions if it makes logical sense to ask them. After all, sometimes the explanations those in authority give us really make no sense.

I'm so glad you won your appeal! And the school have to say they're full and you have to argue against it, that's the whole point.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 14:11

SkinnyMalinkyLankyLegs · 08/11/2023 05:55

I understand perfectly well what happens at a school appeal hearing. There is no need for your sarcastic "hint", you're really just coming across as rude, which seems to be your general communication style which is probably why people don't get into things with you.

Hint - there is a difference between asking questions and bulldozing people into giving you exactly what you want, which is what your line of questioning to the school no doubt came across as.

There isn't really much point in trying to explain that further to you though as you seem unable to understand that and just want to argue against anything anyone says if you don't like it/don't agree with it.

Best of luck with your appeal.

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But you were shocked that I asked questions after the school said it was full. But that's what an appeal is. How was I 'bulldozing' by asking pertinent questions? Do you think the panel were also 'bulldozing' by asking similar questions?

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Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 14:16

Namesbeenchanged · 08/11/2023 06:18

This.

There are limited school places and a maximum number for each school in each year group.

You asking what particular rooms are for is completely irrelevant. They might have 2 spare rooms used for drama and art, so what, if the maximum number of pupils for a particular year group is reached then they cannot accept your child. They are busy and you are asking irrelevant questions!

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So what is an appeal for then?
If there is no situation my DC would be admitted then what happens if my appeal is successful?

They are busy...doing an appeal. They are there to answer these questions from myself, the panel and other parents. Of course it's relevant if they have lots of spare rooms. What would your argument against the school be then?

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 14:19

MakeItRain · 08/11/2023 06:42

What happened in your appeal? In my opinion, because of the way the school uses the rooms, I think it's entirely relevant to ask about the smaller number of children in the sixth form, freeing up rooms. A school lost several appeals near me some years ago, because it turned out there was theoretically "room" in a part of it that hadn't been accounted for. So personally I think your questions should go in your favour. The school can fudge it's reply, but the decision isn't made by them. (Ps I've never had a diagnosis but always suspected I'm autistic!)
I do understand why people give "vague" answers though. The teacher was trying to shut you down because she didn't like your question.

Yes, exactly, those who know about appeals know it is entirely relevant. And yes, the teacher is obviously trying not to give information that will go against the school. Not heard about the appeal yet.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 14:21

Wannabegreenfingers · 08/11/2023 06:53

My ex was like this. It drove me insane. He'd repeat the question until he got the answer he wanted. It was exhausting. It didn't matter if the answer was wrong. In his head he needed a very specific answer even if it made no sense to me. He isn't ND, just incredibly difficult.

Well, I think that's the difference. I want the actual answer whatever that might be.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 14:34

Boomboom22 · 08/11/2023 07:21

Op I think you have misunderstood the appeals process. The first step is the school arguing they are full. If they said they are not you win a place automatically. If the panel accepts they are full then you can argue about detriment to your child versus to the school going over pan.
It is very normal and expected for thr school to be correct in applying their admissions policy. You seem to be stuck on this bit.
Also a dh is senior leadership so your rude attitude of calling them a teacher who you think is out of their depth will come across and not go down well, nor will home schooling if you did not try the allocated school.

I think you may have misunderstood. After the school argues they are full you then question them on this. This is prior to you arguing your case. This is how the chairperson led it and how the panel and other parents did it. This was how I was told it would go beforehand. So I don't think I could be mistaken unless the school, panel and clerk were all confused too. There was a question around the admission process actually. I'm only describing this bit as people are asking me about it.

My part was completely fine. I gave my case and they asked me lots of questions all of which I could answer easily.

I'm only calling them teacher on here for ease rather than deputy head teacher each time. I didn't call her anything other than her name at the appeal. And I only thought she must have been out of depth afterwards as she struggled answering lots of the questions and the clerk/panel had to step in. Obviously some was her trying not to give out certain information. But yes she is fairly new so perhaps this role was new to her. Not sure what's wrong with saying that?

OP posts:
Boomboom22 · 08/11/2023 14:34

Again, the appeal goes forward to your reasons why it would be more detrimental for your child not to get a place than for the school to go over pan. If they applied the criteria correctly you can't really argue this bit and the vast majority of appeals that are won are when you show more detriment to your child than the school exceeding pan.
I think you are muddling correct application of the admissions criteria to sen needs and general appeal when you didn't get your first choice which it seems you are doing as your reason.
Unless you are going to say now your child has an ehcp and you named this school but they didn't apply the criteria correctly.

You've fixated on part 1 which is usually irrelevant.

Boomboom22 · 08/11/2023 14:35

Yes but you've taken the argument too far. 6th form is irrelevant.

sollenwir · 08/11/2023 14:38

They understood what you were asking regarding room use, however didn't provide you with that information because how they use rooms isn't a/the only factor that will influence whether they have space to accept your child in Y7.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 14:38

Highlandsprocker · 08/11/2023 07:37

They can say they are full end of!!

Your MH doesn't come into it.
Your question was irrelevant, if anything Your appeal should be about why your DD needs to go there not irrelevant questions about another year group.

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Well, they can't because if your appeal is upheld...as ours has been!!! 😀🎉 Then they have to let the DC in!

And yes all those things come into it. The second part of the process is arguing about your DC. You can't do that in the first part that is about the school.

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Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 14:40

MoonriseKingdom · 08/11/2023 08:05

The school will say they are full as they are up to PAN and that is what determines how many children they should admit. It sounds from their response that this is what the panel chair felt as well. You might not like it or disagree with it but hyper focussing on this point won’t help. You are much more likely to win the appeal by showing why that school is best placed to meet your child’s needs rather than trying to make arguments about classroom arrangements. Hopefully you made some good points along this line and your child will get the place they need.

You can't argue about your child in the part about the school. You u have to ask questions about the school.

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 14:43

SageLavenderThyme · 08/11/2023 08:52

Although I do think some of the of the discussion on this thread is interesting in terms of thinking about different communication styles, I do think that as part of a formal process such as OP is describing there is the expectation that questions should be answered.

The school have shared rooms and room sizes as part of their justification as to why the school can't accommodate OP's DD, and therefore it would be relevant for the school to answer specific questions related to school numbers and rooms, in order to give the OP a chance to properly challenge the decision.

The question of whether the teacher felt like answering, or predicted where discussion was going, shouldn't really come into it.

It sounds like OP's DD may have missed out on a school place due to an error on the school's part. Therefore I would suggest it is encumbant upon the school to examine their capacity and see if there is a way to accommodate OP's DD in these exceptional circumstances. If they have already done so and the exercise was not fruitful, fine. But it would be appropriate, as part of the appeal process, to fully explain how that decision was reached. OP's question was relevant there.

Thank you. It seems few people here really understand the appeal process. Fair enough I didn't until recently. But I wouldn't make comments about something I have no knowledge about.

Not sure which bit we won on but so relieved!

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Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 14:47

Phineyj · 08/11/2023 09:33

Hi OP, I teach in a large comprehensive where year 7 is more than full (as in every year 7-11 full plus a few more students who came on EHCP appeals or managed moves etc) but our sixth form is not full.

A year 7 class uses my GCSE/A-level classroom for their tutor time. The tutor has had to put 3 folding exam desks and extra chairs in there for tutor time (we used to have to do the same at the superselective grammar where I taught - up to 34 in a year 7 class there which didn't actually fit the room - fortunately there were normally1 or 2 at individual music or drama lessons).

The corridors are ridiculously crammed. I often can't easily get down them as a teacher. An additional 100 6th formers would make no difference to that. 2 or 3 extras in every KS3 class absolutely does. That's say 3 x 6 x 5 = 90 extra kids in those corridors.

The school, legally, has to hear the appeal. That doesn't mean they have to be happy about the overcrowding and lack of resources. It's not personal to you, although I'm sorry you had a stressful experience.

The most useful thing to do would be to look at last year's admissions booklet for your LA and you will be able to see how many appeals were allowed for that particular school.

As well as the power imbalance between you and the person chairing the appeal, there is a huge power imbalance between the school and the paymasters in Westminster who fund the school buildings!

Rubbish situation with lots of defensive behaviour all round.

I'm not suggesting the school has to be happy. But I believe they should be able to answer the questions. There have been no appeals allowed in the last few years. So grateful ours was!

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 14:53

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 08/11/2023 09:38

If the OP communicates in the same way as she does for people not agreeing with her here, or suggesting the reasons why her questions were met the vague way they were….

If you asked it several times, you were badgering. The focus should have been specifically why that school would be best for your daughter. Not an implied ‘I don’t think you’re using classrooms effectively so I want to check’

If your child is deserving of this above subscription place, perhaps they’re already going above with a child they feel has more need. Perhaps they’re in debt (like so many schools are) and daren’t take on another child who will need extra support.

Why is it this school provides more for your child than another? You said above there were not SEND issues, so what is it that makes this school so good for her? Bearing in mind you clearly think poorly of the people you met already.

Well then the panel were badgering too. But the reason was because we needed answers for certain questions. You may think that should be the focus but that isn't how it works. The first part is purely about the school and you can't bring your DC into it.

They were not already going above.

I don't think poorly of anyone at the school. I'm not going to go into why the school meets my Dd's needs because it would be a lot to write and I'm just so happy she has a place! 🎉

OP posts:
Triplixate · 08/11/2023 14:54

Yep all the time. I get a lot of quite patronising answers that assume I don’t understand something simple. So for example, a friend of a colleague came into our shop years ago and they were excitedly talking about how said friend was a medium and colleague said “I keep finding white feathers”. I said “oh what do white feathers mean?” And they gave each other a look like “oh she’s so simple” and went on to explain what a medium was. I was like “yes I understand that but what do white feathers mean?” So then I got an explanation of something else… anyway eventually after a third attempt I learnt that some people visiting spirits leave white feathers (or something similar.. was a long time ago). It’s like people assume I’m
too thick to possibly be asking what I am asking so they go back a step (or several) and give me some random background information.

Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 15:20

cardibach · 08/11/2023 11:39

I’m a teacher with 35years experience, much of it in a position where I decided on group size/composition. I’m pretty sure I know exactly what there is to it and you are missing key points about how student ability/emotional state/ALN affect size of class. Maybe the rooms have 32 seats and every class of 30 has 2 adults working with ALN students. Maybe the class of 29 has more ALN students so needs more adult seats. Maybe when they are put into sets the children with ALN are distributed differently.
Your assumption you know more than everyone else (shown in ‘there’s much more to it than you think’ here) is rather arrogant. It also shows up what you don’t actually know.

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And the school have a right to put that argument across. When I said there is more to it than you think, I meant the appeal. People keep wondering why I'm asking questions of the school or not talking about my DC. Because that is what you have to do! That is the process which I'm sure you know. And noone knows my background or my experience in schools either so rather arrogant to assume. Anyway we won so my arguments obviously were pertinent!

OP posts:
Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 15:21

RelationshipOrNot · 08/11/2023 10:40

Perhaps they have to? Maybe they see it as a formality and don't go into it with a view to actually engaging.

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They're not really doing their job then because they are meant to argue how the school can't take another pupil.

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Original poster
Hotandsunny · 08/11/2023 15:23

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 08/11/2023 12:11

Ironically the OP is a bit vague about this part, @cardibach. Perhaps there aren’t any that would warrant preferential treatment and so the fixation on class sizes.

Clearly not as we won. But the thing is that isn't what this thread is about.

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