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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to not sit down with this colleague?

225 replies

Bella60 · 05/11/2023 20:21

Okay, so had to name change for this one! Last year I was in a temporary management position at my school (I’m an English teacher) and part of my role was to promote whole-school literacy. I implemented a vocabulary online programme to KS3; I held parent assemblies about reading; I created monthly newsletters based around reading and book recommendations; I held a book club each week; visited other schools and did other stuff in the quest to improve literacy in the school and I had data to prove these things were starting to make an impact. Anyway, the Head then decided they wanted a ‘whole-school literacy lead’ so I applied for the position along with a science teacher. The science teacher got the job. Honestly, I’m fine about it because in hindsight it’s a mammoth task. The stuff I was doing was fun but the job description was huge! Last week, the science teacher who got the job asked for a sit down so she can go through all the things I did last year regarding literacy because she and SLT are keen to continue what I was doing. She said in the email she was also keen to hear what ideas I have for the future. So, I emailed back and gave her my contacts for the vocab builder platform and recommended a zoom call with them. I listed the things I had done last year and talked about what worked well but didn’t agree to meet her. Now SLT are turning up the heat and insisting I meet with her telling me that because I’m an English teacher I’m more knowledgeable about literacy and it’s ’my duty’ to support her and the school. (They actually said those words) WTAF?? I’m normally really laid back and will help anyone but I feel there’s a line here- I’m thinking if I wasn’t good enough for the position then why now are my ideas good enough?? What do you think? Am I being out of order by not sitting down with this teacher or should I stand my ground and say no?

OP posts:
Appleofmyeye2023 · 05/11/2023 21:55

Oh, but btw OP, you’re absolutely right to be annoyed and not want to help. Do enough to cover your back, and only that. I’d mention that you’d had feedback from interview that she’d got the role for her “forward thinking ideas” and that’s why she got the job, and that sounds great ! Then laugh and say “so clearly I’d not advise you to use any of my ideas then” . Say As little as possible to be helpful and meet SLT demands. Wirte an email after to her and copy to SLT, to outline what you went through to cover said backside,

Thelondonone · 05/11/2023 21:57

Reddishraddish · 05/11/2023 20:30

but this is a task you have been asked to do during your working hours for the benefit of the students, so YABU not to do it. Schools rely on team work to get the best for the children.

If you are being sked to do it at the weekend, I see your point, but otherwise, just do it

This is bullshit-don’t do this…. Schools work on goodwill but most of us are too overworked to work for free-just tick off with this shit!!

Winter42 · 05/11/2023 22:01

The thing is in schools when you are given another task to do in your working hours, it doesn't tend to replace any of the other tasks.

I think it would be reasonable to do it if the school were going to cover one of your lessons whilst you did it maybe, but certainly not in your PPA time, lunch or after school.

The idea that we have to work as a team for the good of the students is precisely how schools get away with overworking and underpaying staff.

Itsnotchristmasyet · 05/11/2023 22:05

SerafinasGoose · 05/11/2023 21:52

This is great advice.

The handover of any role would likely involve this and nothing more. If you meet as requested you can't be accused of being obstructive, or professionally envious, or of chomping on 'sour grapes'.

Yet you give away nothing more than you've given already. 'Ideas for the future' are her job now, and given you're now doing a different job, you are no longer being paid to devote the time and headspace required to do this one. She was appointed: it's now down to her.

If you face more persistence, try approaching your line manager and taking the standard union line: 'Which jobs would you prefer me not to do to give me time to accommodate this?'

For that matter, if you do really come under more pressure having already stated your reservations about this, consulting the union might not be a bad idea.

YANBU. It doesn't do to be too much of a pushover, and this is really quite the nerve.

Show quote history

I completely agree with both of these posts.

MrsPositivity1 · 05/11/2023 22:07

Sparklesocks · 05/11/2023 20:27

I’d be tempted to go down the weaponised incompetence route, meet with her but say I don’t have any new ideas beyond the ones Ive already implemented/shared - but best of luck, I’m sure as the literacy lead you will come up with some…😉

Edited

⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️ this

Lemonandlime123 · 05/11/2023 22:08

Reddishraddish · 05/11/2023 20:30

but this is a task you have been asked to do during your working hours for the benefit of the students, so YABU not to do it. Schools rely on team work to get the best for the children.

If you are being sked to do it at the weekend, I see your point, but otherwise, just do it

If the OPs only responsibility is classroom teaching, then no she does not have to do it. It is a paid role and teachers already have enough to do, which is very rarely finished within school hours and involves hours of weekend and evening work.

YANBU. They are taking advantage.

WrongSwanson · 05/11/2023 22:09

Appleofmyeye2023 · 05/11/2023 21:48

I, as non teacher, am squirming at idea of “whole school literacy”

wtf does that actually mean?

surely kids have to read and write in every subject and activity anyway ?

and those stuck on aspects of literacy, like the old spelling gem, aren’t going to improve by having it called out in every single fecking lesson form science to history, that they’re actually good at but still shite at spelling. That’s just demoralising- you’re constantly being penalised and called out for one issue that you already know you’ve got issues with, through reading lessons and English,

Been there. Got in way of me actually enjoying the lesson.

I had a form of dyslexia, but wasn’t diagnosed in those days - 1970s, and my mum was an English teacher too. Nothing has ever helped my spelling. nothing does now. ( not helped my square fingered crap typing) .

but my reading is insatiable but only eventually at age 8. Late start, made up for it ever since and speed read. No amount of teachers constantly thrusting literacy down my throat in every single lesson helped that late start. Just diligence of my mum and my primary teachers being patient for my brain to click in.

Im 60, did a high level consultant job in top FTSE companies. Spelling was still crap. At advent of computers I got spellchecking to help. But it doesn’t pick up everything and I’m also, because of my issue, very bad at proof reading. I owned it, told managers, people I worked with that this was a problem for me. Anything external went to another colleague to proof read. I was employed for my technical expertise and experience , not my “literacy” .

The preoccupation by the spelling and grammar police is frustrating to people like me, and gets in way of other intelligence development and attributes. Let kids work on the subject they’re being taught in, not handicapping them constantly with need for reading more, on a subject they might be bored at reading (we don’t all learn by reading - some of us learn better by doing, by listening, by watching etc) and certainly not with insistence on correct spelling and punctuation outside of actual English lessons.

focus all the schools resources on identifying and targeting support for those kids who struggle with reading writing etc and it’s holding them back

Totally agree

(Half my relatives are brilliant scientists and doctors with atrocious spelling)

SisterMichaelsHabit · 05/11/2023 22:09

I think it's time to look for a new school TBH. They either have you down as "not management material" for some reason or they don't like you or want to pay you what you're worth (but still want the work done) or they promoted her over you because she's friends with someone higher up and the politics aren't in your favour.

Either way, I wouldn't want to stick around for a school with no interest in developing my career or giving me opportunities to progress. School politics are the most vicious ones I ever dealt with in my working life and I found that once someone's card was marked, that was it for their career at that school.

Absolutely don't go above and beyond unpaid. The additional responsibilities aspect of the payscale was hard-won by the unions to stop the absolute piss taking behaviour of putting upon teachers and taking advantage of their goodwill and desire to do the best for the students without paying them for the time and effort this stuff takes.

PensionPuzzle · 05/11/2023 22:10

You'll need cover to be able to meet with her, of course 🙂

I'd do it, go over what you've already sent, and leave it at that. I don't think you can object too much to sharing work and thinking that you've already done, but equally you don't need to do any new thinking/work on it, IYSWIM.

determinedtomakethiswork · 05/11/2023 22:13

I would say have a look at my job application form because I outlined everything there. Also have a look at what I did last year because I made a great start on it. Unfortunately I'm so busy at the moment I've got to focus on my own job.

TheSilentSister · 05/11/2023 22:16

Also agreeing with meeting her, even if to just reiterate what you've done so far. Then smile sweetly and tell her that you haven't had time to work on any new ideas going forward, seeing as your role was temporary, and that surely she must have some ideas herself as she got the job! Tell her you're happy to have a look at her idea's (which I bet she's panicking about as she hasn't got any) and give semi enthusiastic responses.

Humbugg · 05/11/2023 22:16

Agree with other posters. Go to the meeting, be nice and friendly and just repeat what you’ve told her before really slowly and rehash all the same info you’ve already shared.

MoonRiverDancing · 05/11/2023 22:18

Bella60 · 05/11/2023 20:29

It is cheeky isn’t it? I’m not going mad am I?? The way I’ve been made to feel this week has really made me feel like I’m been totally unreasonable. Thank you for your reply x

I’m so glad I read your post. I’m feeling similar to you right now - so I’ll read the feedback. I hope it helps you (…and me).

ChocolateCinderToffee · 05/11/2023 22:18

Reminds me of the time I was runner-up for an internal appointment where I worked. They spent a great deal of time justifying to me their decision not to appoint me to the job and then said 'but we hope you don't mind if we use the ideas you suggested in your presentation'.

I was speechless.

Elvis1956 · 05/11/2023 22:21

I once didn't get a job I had done for 6 months because I "had the wrong personality" I immediately congratulated the person who got the job...who am hour later came to talk to me. I ended up managing the manager of the person who failed to promote me....
All I would say is in this situation meet them and say you have already provided the details of what you planned to do if you had got the job. Wish them well and if pushed, be honest and ask "so you got promoted over me and you expect me to provide you the way to do the job...really". Teachers are in short supply you can find another job...

AproposofEverything · 05/11/2023 22:21

Bella60 · 05/11/2023 21:01

@Spidey66 the Head made the point that literacy was a whole school thing and nothing to do with English so there was perhaps an agenda by employing a science teacher to do the job. The whole thing is strange though!

While that may be true, perhaps they then should have got her / anyone other than an English teacher to do the year of free work rather than you.

Aydel · 05/11/2023 22:22

I applied for a job that I should have been a shoo-in for. It went to a man who had no knowledge at all of the complex subject matter and no knowledge of the second working language. But he interviewed better than me. I was asked to train him. I refused and my boss - who had recruited him - had to train the new boy. It wasn’t a quick process and his lack of knowledge of the second working language seriously held him back as he wasn’t able to participate in meetings without interpretation. You have my sympathy!

EddieBlackadder · 05/11/2023 22:27

Like Sparklesocks (are they glittery?) says, since the school is trying to exploit you for free, exploit the school. Tell them that you'll do the job you were turned down for, and without officially being given the job, if you're give a whopping pay rise. See where it gets you. No ask, no get. It's only taxpayers money.

SweeetFemaleAttitude · 05/11/2023 22:31

I’d personally avoid the weaponised incompetence route, you may want a different role or to step up in the future. I wouldn’t play that game.
I’d go down the ‘workload’ route. Cite important things you are doing, and just be too busy to be available. Suggest maybe release time, no skin off your nose, but otherwise keep nodding and sounding agreeable but find yourself very busy a lot.
make nice noises praising them about their forward thinking, sound happy and keep pushing it back. Say things like ‘oh, I’d love to know where this is’ , ‘if you email over your plans so far I’d be happy to offer feedback’ or ‘send me the next steps you’ve identified, I’m happy to look’. Make sure everything you ask for requires them to offer something first. Then be busy.
The only time to step in is when you are the public face of it, staff training- if you stand up and deliver. It’s useful for your career progression so don’t cut off your nose to spite your face.

Goodfrock · 05/11/2023 22:32

I once got a job that someone else had been doing temporarily. He could have responded by being unhelpful and difficult, as recommended here, but what he actually did was be brilliantly kind and supportive ....and at my first opportunity I promoted him

What does OP gain by being difficult? It's one meeting during her normal working day. I know MN is determined no one should ever be taken advantage of but during a long career I have found that doing someone a favour always comes back 10 fold. In fact in Make Friends and Influence People Carneigie says doing favours should be our biggest priority. I paraphrase, it's a long time since I read it, but doing favours has definitely done me a lot more good than harm.

ElleCapitaine · 05/11/2023 22:34

Reddishraddish · 05/11/2023 20:30

but this is a task you have been asked to do during your working hours for the benefit of the students, so YABU not to do it. Schools rely on team work to get the best for the children.

If you are being sked to do it at the weekend, I see your point, but otherwise, just do it

But the school have appointed someone to do that job - that person is getting paid to deliver a literacy program for the benefit of the student. The OP already has a full time role.

OP, just meet them briefly, do the handover, if you have an idea then throw them a bone, but you already have a full workload and it is now their job to lead a literacy program. They must already have lots of great ideas, otherwise how could they have got the job over someone who was actually doing the role 🤔

Smerpsmorp · 05/11/2023 22:36

I sort of understand it not being an English teacher leading on whole school literacy, as (whilst you may have this) you need an understanding of how literacy should be taught where it’s harder to find. Science teachers are often the most resistant to teaching literacy (and maths) so it makes sense to have a science teacher lead on it.

However I truly would just say you don’t have the time to meet unless they cover one of your lessons. Not really sure what she can gain from meeting with you to be honest - if I was in her position I’d just tel SLT I will emulate what I can but that I’ll do it my own way.

i get very irritated when they try to arrange meetings during your frees. However I’d also say that it’s probably easier just to meet or email and say this is what I did - and I personally wouldn’t want to be the one who wasn’t gracious. But I’d be very irritated by this and I’d probably say - I don’t really want to meet because I didn’t get the job.

also, English teachers are gold in my part of the country………. So am sure they’d give you a tlr for something else if you fought for it.

slore · 05/11/2023 22:40

I don't think weaponised incompetence is a good idea at all. This could make you look bad if they ever reconsider wanting you for this role, or anything similar in the future. Keep your options open.

YANBU at all, it's terrible to not give you the job, give it to an inferior candidate, then expect you to keep propping them up, unpaid.

If the school want your assistances and experience with whole school literacy then they should pay you to do that. I'd go to the union and tell them you're being expected to perform work unpaid for a role you didn't actually get.

SerafinasGoose · 05/11/2023 22:41

Goodfrock · 05/11/2023 22:32

I once got a job that someone else had been doing temporarily. He could have responded by being unhelpful and difficult, as recommended here, but what he actually did was be brilliantly kind and supportive ....and at my first opportunity I promoted him

What does OP gain by being difficult? It's one meeting during her normal working day. I know MN is determined no one should ever be taken advantage of but during a long career I have found that doing someone a favour always comes back 10 fold. In fact in Make Friends and Influence People Carneigie says doing favours should be our biggest priority. I paraphrase, it's a long time since I read it, but doing favours has definitely done me a lot more good than harm.

It can, and I'm not necessarily averse to doing them. I'm fortunate enough to work in a team in which we have each other's backs. I also don't blame my colleagues for the behaviour of management or treat them accordingly.

On the other hand, it doesn't pay to be too much of a pushover. People in general will certainly not respect you for it.

Mikimoto · 05/11/2023 22:43

Tell her your latest idea is to make Bret Easton Ellis mandatory for all 12-yr olds.