Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)

[CallmePaul]

Hello Mumsnet, 1st poster here.

So I'm the man in question here, my 4yr old girl needed the loo in a big store today, went into the men's, stinky & horrible & the only 1 available cubicle is engaged, the disabled one is locked & my little one is busting.
I opened the ladies door, wow much nicer than the men's! I asked loudly if it was OK if a man came in with his little girl to the loo, got an OK from a cubicle, business attended to.

Washing her & my hands afterwards I got a pretty loud tut & mumble of humph womans toilets, from a lady who just entered, I get it, I'm a bloke in a ladies loos, I really shouldn't be in there.

I've never taken her in the ladies before, always the men's & some pretty nasty loos at times.

So acceptable behaviour from me or was I out of order?

Ad hominem again. More accuasations of aggression. You're accusing me of emotional abuse? You have some nerve. You're also devoid of any sense of irony.

I consider this exchange pointless and unhelpful and will not be continuing it.

My 4 year olds were able to use 'adult sized' toilets, most can get on the toilet fine. They start school at 4, so they need to be using the toilet independently. I personally would rather see a bit of a toilet roll on the floor and water splashed round the sink etc, than a man in the ladies toilet.

Thank fuck for that !!!!!

Women deserve dignity and privacy. It's not about feeling uncomfortable for a few moments. What a way to minimise the impact which men invading women's spaces has on some women. How unpleasant. The OP can ask men to not use the urinal for the moments when his dd was using it if it came to that. Men too can hold on for a few minutes. In reality I don't think my OH would have done this because he planned well enough to not take to our DD to the toilet with 0 seconds left of her ability to hold it in and if her trigger was still that quick he'd have had a chance of clothes with him.

It is the social convention that toilets are single sex after about age eight.
The trouble with saying it's fine for a man to go into the ladies with a 4 year old girl is that its chips away at this convention. If a man with a 4 year is fine what about with a 5/6/7 year old. If the problem is the gent's being occupied then this same situation might happen with a young boy and dad might decide it is fine for him to take his young son into the ladies. If it became socially acceptable for men to be in the ladies for a good reason then men will take advantage of the loosened boundaries to go in there for any old reason and people are naive if they think they won't.

My mother was sexually abused by countless men in her family. She was traumatised all her life. Her 'hatred' of men was simply cold hard fear. I think that's actually quite common. She's one of the women who would have been so horrified to find a man in the ladies loos that she'd have likely never gone back to them. IMHO it's hatred to make excuses for men who cba to figure out another solution to the logistical challenge he faced rather than stand up for women's rights.

Because women's feelings are less important. I truly believe there are some people out there - stridently misogynistic men and sadly all too many of their women supporters - who view females as less than human.

What was that phrase I've heard used? 'Reframe your trauma'. Those offensive words - implying an absolute disregard for women's feelings, autonomy and dignity - have not been used on this thread, but the thread nonetheless absolutely reeks of precisely that sentiment.

I'm sorry about what happened to your mother.

No it's not ok, and any women on here consenting to you in a female space can not consent for other women. Consent is not transferable.

Women still have dignity and privacy if there is a man briefly in the communal part of a women's toilet because the man is not in the stall with them whilst they are exposed, this is why men are allowed to be toilet attendants in women's toilets.
The kid being held over a urinal though has none of that privacy or dignity because they are being held genitalia exposed in a male space.

You think a 4 year old should be made to wee themselves because your husband has a change of clothes so oh well? Sometimes small children suddenly declare they are desperate for a wee. Most 4 year olds would feel embarrassment at weeing themselves if they were no longer in nappies. Would you be happy being expected to wee yourself because you need assistance in a toilet and some stranger isn't happy about that?

Honestly I get some women have a trauma response to men in their spaces. I am one of those women. I would feel afraid of an alone man randomly in the womens toilets, but I am completely capable of assessing a situation, seeing that this is a father with a small female child who announced he was coming in and then just dealing with my feelings, because it is not my place to be projecting my trauma as if my feelings or trauma response is more important then the needs of a small child. Every women in this thread is capable of doing the same. Women are not weak hapless victims who are so fragile we can't possible cope with the existence of a father with a child in a communal sink area who we would rather wasn't there.

Did you miss that the one single cubicle in the mens was occupied?

Some women are so fragile and I think they matter. It's not privacy if a man is in the ladies. He can see women come out with blood on their hands, for example. You might not care about that but others do and it's not your right to give away female spaces. If the urinal thing bothers you, don't do it. That's still no excuse to for a man to be in the ladies. I'm also one of those ladies and my assessment would be that there is no excuse for the man in the ladies so this is a man who is happy to violate women's boundaries. So he's someone I'm scared of.

Thank you. It's a trauma that impacted down the generations to despite her being long dead, it's still very live and impactful. This thread does reek of exactly that. How on earth my OH managed to care for a dd without encountering this! Who knew he was such a special man!

Bloody hell. Of course it was fine. You asked before entering and you were as quick as you could be. If you ‘identified as a women’ all these posters would have been fine!! I wouldn’t want my daughter into the vile men’s.

ridiculous responses here!

Just let her wet herself and tell her she's upholding womens dignity (or let her pee in a gutter or drain outside)

God I hate this place sometimes. People would rather allow a 4 year old to wet herself than tolerate a father taking his daughter in.

It makes no difference to me whether a man identifies as a woman or not. He should not be in the ladies.

Oh I absolutely agree. Just the MN responses would have been all ‘we are all for inclusion blah blah’

My question was a genuine one. If the woman in the cubicle said don't come in, what would you have done?

It's fine as a one off and I would have understood but then does it become normalized?. We all start saying it's ok for men to come in if they're with their kids. It isn't. I would not like to see men make a habit of it.

You only have to read on here about women's changing rooms and how many men come in now it's a free for all. It's not ok.

It's shit there isn't a good solution for Dads but Dads should push for better facilities I think.

No need. Just take some responsibility and plan better. There is no need to get to the toilet at the point at which a 4 year old can't hold it long enough for the person in the cubicle to finish.

It could be that you're right. There are some Mumsnetters who would undoubtedly take that view. The problem is that if 'inclusion' is pursued to the extent that many women would self-exclude, then 'inclusivity' is not going to be the end result. Isn't that ironic? Inclusion, to the exclusion of the people that facility was designed for in the first place.

And to what end? Would some women, for instance the severely traumatised or those belonging to the more orthodox branches of some religions, no longer be able to participate in public life? Is it seriously expected that they will just stay at home? Those women matter, too.

As to those who believe women's feelings, autonomy and actual needs - as oppose to someone else's wants - don't matter, this is doubtless fine and dandy for those who hold these views. But the PP above nails it, because it's the height of naivety to imagine that predatory men won't take advantage.

They absolutely will. And OP might not be such a predatory man, and a man presenting as a woman and simply wanting to get on with life in peace might not be one, but the fetishist who followed him in might be, and by appearances only it's impossible to tell who is and isn't a threat. Hence the single sex facilities. The PP above has this bang to rights: once you chip chip chip away at this boundary, and say we'll make an exception for you, and you, and you ... then the safeguarding boundary is down. And we've seen this happening in various public arenas in recent years.

This calls to mind that old maxim: 'your right to swing your fist ends where my nose starts'. And there are important discussions to be had when the rights of some potentially vulnerable groups directly conflict with those of another.

It's the moderates on both sides whose voices are desperately needed on that point. Telling women: 'we are what we say you are, and YOU are what we say you are, and there is no conflict (when there clearly is) and you're a bigot if you try to address the nuances of this', will no longer cut it.

Sometimes, sex matters.

I agree but it's also striking how many people here have partners who negotiated all of this with no need to enter women's spaces. So first and foremost men can explore the options which already exist to make this a non issue.

My question was a genuine one. If the woman in the cubicle said don't come in, what would you have done?

It's fine as a one off and I would have understood but then does it become normalized?. We all start saying it's ok for men to come in if they're with their kids. It isn't. I would not like to see men make a habit of it.

You only have to read on here about women's changing rooms and how many men come in now it's a free for all. It's not ok.

It's shit there isn't a good solution for Dads but Dads should push for better facilities I think. Edited

Great post!

She was desperate. And she's only four.

There is. I’m not four but I’ve nearly wet myself numerous times when the person in the cubicle takes for ever. I’ve used the men’s loo when it’s been empty too.

Hhmmm in this situation as a dad of a little girl I don’t think it’s the end of the world as an isolated incident. The issue is that if people start doing it then men in women’s toilets will become normalised and that’s a bit of an issue. They’re safe spaces for women to use and not all women would be comfortable sharing that space with men. Possibly multiple at any one time. Also have you smelt the mens, we don’t want that happening to ours.

So you probably should have just waited until the mens became free or depending on the set up of the toilets just sent your dd in and stood by the door to listen out for her and make sure she didn’t leave unnoticed.