Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)

[CallmePaul]

Hello Mumsnet, 1st poster here.

So I'm the man in question here, my 4yr old girl needed the loo in a big store today, went into the men's, stinky & horrible & the only 1 available cubicle is engaged, the disabled one is locked & my little one is busting.
I opened the ladies door, wow much nicer than the men's! I asked loudly if it was OK if a man came in with his little girl to the loo, got an OK from a cubicle, business attended to.

Washing her & my hands afterwards I got a pretty loud tut & mumble of humph womans toilets, from a lady who just entered, I get it, I'm a bloke in a ladies loos, I really shouldn't be in there.

I've never taken her in the ladies before, always the men's & some pretty nasty loos at times.

So acceptable behaviour from me or was I out of order?

If I'd have heard no I wouldn't have entered.

To clarify, because a minority of respondents appear to think I'm some sort of deviant sex pest, that is a reference to the ladies loo, not to rape/sex!

It's not normal to get to that state but I do understand that some people have bladder issues which mean they can't wait as long as healthy people. That needs extra planning for sure. There will be a number of men who this applies to. Should we let them use the ladies too as well as all men who have small children with them (maybe under 8's?).

To clarify, because a minority of respondents appear to think I'm some sort of deviant sex pest, that is a reference to the ladies loo, not to rape/sex!

that’s not amusing

If I'd have heard, no I wouldn't have entered

and there we go. If he heard? If he didn’t or pretended not to - he’d have barrelled on in

What would you have done if someone had said no? What solution would you have come up with to address the challenge?

She's four, for heaven's sake. Of course she can't wait. This is perfectly acceptable and I wouldn't bat an eyelid.

It’s entirely normal. Half of all women experience a degree of incontinence, rising to 75% over 65. You’re clearly very fortunate if you’re in the unaffected 50%.

https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/is-urine-incontinence-normal-for-women#:~:text=Urine%20incontinence%2C%20or%20the%20involuntary,over%2065%20report%20urine%20leakage.

I thought it a reasonable question. I don't think anyone would say no not because everyone would be ok with it but it's pretty hard to say no. Women are conditioned to put their needs aside especially to men.

Nobody has called you a sex pest. Certainly I didn't.

You wanted a discussion and you got one.

I'd take that particular issue up with those who have designated many, many disabled loos to double up as baby changing facilities. This made me uncomfortable when my DC was a baby, but I don't make the rules. These were the facilities available, and they were often the only facilities.

The clear answer is a third space. For various reasons that option has been mooted and rejected on various fronts.

Glad to see the majority of people agree with OP here! Vocal minority don't but the vote doesn't lie.

Ok brilliant, ask him how I should have cleaned the shit off a waterless urinal then?

My options were rapidly decreasing, at that moment it was as I saw it- she poos her pants, she poos on the floor in a corner of the corridor, she poos over the men's sink, or I stick my finger up her bum & get her out to the car which was 5 mins away, to then unleash the poonami in a plastic bag.

Or the option that I chose as my last resort & seems to have cast me in the minds of a few as some sort of fetish sex pest villain, I tried the ladies loo.

The only other option I thought of later was grab a shopping bag & she goes in that, corridor or mens loos people all around, but no I had no bag on me, no wipes, all were I'm the car.

I was only popping in for 10 mins & we'd left place with decent loos less than 5 mins before, where of course she was asked if she needed the loo.

You've no basis on which to assume that I also don't experience incontinence. I suffer from stress incontinence. You're talking about urge incontinence I think which is a medical issue of course. It's also a medical issue which affects men, so it would be interesting to get an answer to my question - do you think all men who suffer from that, along with all dad's should be able to use the ladies loos? It sounds like you're saying yes they can as long as they've tried the men's first? But any q in the men's and they're welcome into the ladies?

Not acceptable. You should have waited for the men's cubicle to be free.

See the post I've just made I was out of other options, but no I wouldn't have barged in.

Yes they really have & worse, a lot of posts have been deleted, I've been told to fuck off too, pleasant eh?

I'm reporting this post. It's vile to joke about sticking your hands up a girls bottom.

Oh said he'd have put it in a plastic bag, picking it up with loo paper. He'd go and buy this stuff if he didn't have it with him. He also says that at that age he didn't take their 'no, I don't need the loo' to be entirely factual and often suggested they went 'in case'.

Which of these options would you have chosen if a woman had said no when you asked if you could go in there?

I think Paul will take the AIBU poll result to make a habit of entering women-only spaces. “Most women don’t mind and look, I have a 4-year old daughter, I’m just a really great Dad!”

Well done, mansmaids of Mumsnet.

You've no basis on which to assume that I also don't experience incontinence.

I didn’t. I said you’re lucky if you don’t.

That's because on the face of it, it was a reasonable question. Women risk assess all the time, to the point that for many of us it's become so second nature that we might not always even be aware we're doing it.

And in that scenario, I suspect most women would probably judge that a dad accompanied by his 7-YO kid is unlikely to pose any serious threat to them. So far, so reasonable.

But this is where the waters become muddier, and the instant defensiveness on sexual predation more problematic. I haven't seen nor made this accuasion, and likelihood is I'd personally risk assess this situation as posing a low risk. But that isn't the point.

The point is the slow erosion of boundaries, and the admission to single-sex facilities extended on account of this special situation, or that one, or this special identity, or goodwill on the basis that if you're female and refuse to give it, you're an aggressive 'man hater'. (Cf. upthread).

Doesn't matter how nice or lovely or unthreatening these individuals are (I know my DH is not a threat to them; they do not). Because of course predatory men will take advantage. And the more men think it ok to waive the rules 'this once', the more the water wears away at the rock, and the distinctions designed to keep women safe are eroded.

Girls and women are entitled to the spaces that are there to ensure their privacy, dignity and safety.

OP's child is only four, but she will grow up only too quickly, and then have to navigate precisely such issues as these. Her right to her protected spaces. The fear that these are being infiltrated by men, who are physically able to do her harm. And EVERY time these boundaries are eroded, it opens the way for this a little bit more.

OP, as the father of a daughter does this not trouble you at all?

Oh dear god. I give up. There are a lot of very odd people on here. MN is attracting more and more extreme people. Over and out.

Rather than take the AIBU poll result as an invitation to keep on using women-only spaces, perhaps Paul could plan a bit better in future, take his daughter to those nice clean facilities in their last place whatever she says, “Just squeeze some out, it’ll be ages before the next toilet”, and take wipes (not leave them in the car) and spare clothes.

Be the great Dad you purport to be, and don’t expect women to solve your own lack of forethought.

Bye then.

I appreciate it was an emergency but the line gets pushed further and further

dad with a little girl having an emergency
dad with a little girl
men afraid of being in the gents loo
men preferring the ladies loo

i was in a pub last night, i ladies cubicle, mens with a few urinals and a cubicle

no queues in the gents, cue of three for the ladies. Then a man walks out of the gents!

no one is ever going to guess why he was in there 😃 plonker 😒

@literalviolence He was standing up for his daughter’s right to perform a basic human function. I have CPTSD which comes with a whole host of anxiety triggers but I would never expect someone to wet themselves because of my mental health problems.

I think its fine. You were with a 4 year old girl. I wouldn't want her going into the men's. What do poster's on here think you're going to do when you have a child with you. It's not like you went in alone.

@SerafinasGoose I was referring to my question about how OP would have responded if the woman in the cubicle said no. sorry that wasn't clear.

My previous post said same as you.