Man in ladies loo (with little daughter)

[CallmePaul]

Hello Mumsnet, 1st poster here.

So I'm the man in question here, my 4yr old girl needed the loo in a big store today, went into the men's, stinky & horrible & the only 1 available cubicle is engaged, the disabled one is locked & my little one is busting.
I opened the ladies door, wow much nicer than the men's! I asked loudly if it was OK if a man came in with his little girl to the loo, got an OK from a cubicle, business attended to.

Washing her & my hands afterwards I got a pretty loud tut & mumble of humph womans toilets, from a lady who just entered, I get it, I'm a bloke in a ladies loos, I really shouldn't be in there.

I've never taken her in the ladies before, always the men's & some pretty nasty loos at times.

So acceptable behaviour from me or was I out of order?

At this age they often can’t get up onto the toilet. Can’t reach the paper. Can’t reach the sinks. They leave the toilet in a mess left alone.

Decent men don’t invade women’s spaces. It’s very simple for those men.

A man who allowed his daughter to have a mishap in public would also be criticised for being a shit dad. And bodily functions don't always work like clockwork, sometimes with all the planning in the world - situations do arise. Especially with young children.

Would rather concede that occasionally exceptional situations arise and be pragmatic about that, than insist on enforcing a blanket rule that trumps my needs over the needs of a distressed child.

Hear hear. Well put.

Is there a reason whyit might be unsafe for a 4-YO kid to use single-sex facilities on her own?

Oh, yes. Because when those facilities are infiltrated by the other sex, they're no longer single sex.

Aside from the fact there are quite literally women out there who abduct children....

A 4 year old not using the facilities alone is more to do with the fact that those facilities are created for adults. Bigger toilets, higher up sinks and toilet rolls and paper towels. As well as them potentially still struggling with clothing and fastenings

And
A man taking his young daughter to the toilet because its the only space is no more invading the space as a woman deciding that there aren't many men at a concert and so they'll just use the men's as there's a queue....

I just asked my OH re: this dilemma. We have a DD. He did 50% of the childcare when they were little. We have no family support. He said he would never have gone into the ladies. He says he'd have told her to hold it in and if abso desperate would have wondered whether he could hold her over the urinal. So no, it's not about whether there's a woman around to help. Some people would just never invade women's spaces .

hold her over the urinal.

Really? He’d hold a 4 year old girl over a urinal to do poo? There are so many many things wrong with that I do t even know where to start.

So have I. It's nothing to do with perfect toileting skills. It's just normal toileting skills. The question is how long after they say they need to go can they hold it for. The OP is saying the girl couldn't wait long enough for the man in the cubicle to finish. She had to go within the next 2 minutes. That's not usual. If it were, given how spread out toilets are in city centres, there would be a awful lot more accidents than there are.

A man taking his young daughter to the toilet because its the only space is no more invading the space as a woman deciding that there aren't many men at a concert and so they'll just use the men's as there's a queue....

There is a difference because women are not a danger to men. But I wouldn’t use a men’s toilet. Men and women both deserve single sex spaces for privacy and dignity.

Plan your trips with young kids, take them to the toilet often and before they ask, take spare clothes in case of accidents.

My partner would never have used a women’s toilet with our children. Just like if he forgot his wallet and lunch, he wouldn’t go and steal for food from a shop and justify it as necessary.

It’s a boundary he wouldn’t cross because he respects women. If the men in your life would cross that boundary, then they’re not men I would want to know.

Personally I would not want my young child in a womens toilet with you .you are very aggressive and I would not want my child around such hatred .

It is more acceptable to hold a female child over a dirty man's urinal then a man shout into the women's to make his presence known and to go in there to help his child? Urinals are not in private cubicles, any man can just walk in and while his penis out in the urinal next to the child be held exposed over the dirty urinal.

Do small female children not deserve dignity and privacy because adult women might feel a bit uncomfortable for a few moments that a man with a small child is briefly in the communal part of a toilet facility.

There is a difference because women are not a danger to men.

That doesn't change the fact its someone chosing to use the other sex's toilet because its convenient. It's still invading their space

*are less of a danger to men

They aren’t in a potentially vulnerable situation though. He was there with his small child. Men have to access female facilities all the time as cleaners, plumbers, etc. We all use these facilities knowing that the single sex expectation is dependent on context. If you can’t see the context here then yes, it does appear to be very rigid thinking on your part.

I feel so sad that there are women who have been so badly traumatised by men that they hate men. It’s dreadful and makes me genuinely sad

what a passive aggressive, disingenuous and manipulative comment. Women not wanting men in their spaces does not mean they ‘hate men.’ It means they don’t want them in their spaces.

Well, to be fair, we don’t know how far apart the toilets are. How long they’d had to walk to find one. Whether she had a stomach bug. Etc. My 12 year old still missed cues if he’s distracted and then has to dash. To be fair. I do too. If I’m trying to get something done I’ll put off going to the loo. Human beings eh?

That doesn't change the fact its someone chosing to use the other sex's toilet because its convenient. It's still invading their space

And I’ve said it’s wrong because both men and women deserve privacy. Neither should be invading the others space.

An impatient woman using a male toilet doesn’t justify men using women’s toilets. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

Do you wish to take issue with any of the points I've made, @Spermscarecrow? Or are you more interested in ad hominem attacks?

IMO it is your approach that's the 'aggressive' one. It's designed (as ever) to shut women up. Women are the carers, the complacent ones, the ones who meekly cede over their rights or strength of opinion on what happens to be a very important issue at present. They are not supposed to be, had the precise same language been written by a man, 'assertive', but when it comes to a woman it's deemed aggression, shrewishness, bullying, add accusation of choice ad nauseam. And ad nauseam is precisely what it is. It's tedious.

I'm angry. That is true. I'm angry at the cavalier lack of regard (not to mention patrony, as upthread) that women who have been victims of trauma are routinely given on this site. I'm angry with the 'you are a man-hater' accusation every time a woman dares to take issue with male behaviour. I'm angry with the constant assumptions that we are the sex who should be kind, who should make concessions for male behaviour because men's feelings matter more than ours, who should constantly cede to the demands of that sex or be called 'aggressive', or 'unkind', or 'Karens', as they frequently are. And, when they say 'no', it's women who are constantly expected to find a solution for situations they never created in the first place.

Damned right women are angry. Some of our positions are hardening precisely because we've had enough of this attitude. And 'anger' is another thing we're told to swallow, doubtless from the assumption that it's unladylike.

In some situations, anger is healthy. It gets things done.

'Hatred' is your own interpretation. And that's your language, not mine.

Asserting boundaries is very often, when they are asserted by women, deemed as aggression or hatred. When men assert boundaries, or make demands, women are expected to capitulate to these and cede over our feelings to the more important sex.

This is misogyny. Plain and simple.

I am sorry if that came across that way. It was meant as it was said. I do find it sad. Really sad. There is man hating on this thread. I have a son and I’m raiding him to be the best version of himself he can. The hostility in here and in other threads towards makes me sad and angry on his behalf but I also, as a woman who has been on the receiving end of toxic masculinity, can understand why there is the hate. And it makes me sad that some women are so badly hurt and the summarised that they hate men so much. Genuinely. My mother is one of those women who hated men for years because of her experiences.

SerafinasGoose

When the boundaries are so black and white that they ignore the needs and rights of a child then they need challenging. Just because women have been oppressed doesn’t give them the right to demand that a small child’s needs aren’t met.

There is man hating on this thread.

It is not man hating to want safe spaces for women to be respected by men.

I have a very lovely male partner and a son who has been raised well to respect women. I still understand that other women do not know my partner and son and so don’t know that they are good men. And I still understand that even if they did know they are good men, they still do not necessarily want to share a woman’s safe space with them.

More importantly, my partner and son understand that, meaning that they would never invade a woman’s safe space.

@SerafinasGoose hit me up, I want to go for a drink with you!

You're very aggressive to other women as well. I will say it again , I would not want my child exposed to this aggression . It is also very damaging. Many women have been suffered sexual abuse including myself . I do not allow my trauma to manifest into the emotional abuse of others .

I applaud this comment.

At my gym/swimming pool, 8 is the age at which boys are no longer permitted in the female changing rooms. A lot of the mothers of sons disregard this rule. There are clearly boys in there changing with their mothers who are a LOT older than eight. But the message that girls should automatically be expected to cede over their spaces because boys' feelings are more important was not a code I wanted instilled in my son from a young age. There were girls from his class at school engaging in the same swimming lessons. It was no longer appropriate.

His dad - who also believes such boundaries are important - has taken over swimming duty (I'd been taking him since 3.5 months). On the rare occasion I've taken him alone, I've put a warm dry robe on him and some soft joggers and his crocs by the poolside, then taken him off in the car to shower and clean up at home.

There are always ways around these particular issues, and as parents, it's up to us to find them in such a way as this is not at the expense of other groups. A point upthread questions - in very emotive and manipulative terms - the positioning of women's rights above those of 'small female children'. The point is that every woman and girl has the entitlement to change, have their toileting needs met, and/or being in a vulnerable state of undress without the presence of males. Because this is not their space. And suggesting female spaces are not for men is in no way tantamount to being a 'man hater'.

Some disabled loos are designated changing facilities. I'm not questioning whether this is morally right (I lean towards it not being so) but it's the way it is. So when particularly small children need toileting help, I'd assumed the 'changing facility' lavatories applied to such children.

As it's not ideal, an obvious answer is a third space. Not unisex for everyone - this does not account for the women who, for reasons of trauma or religion or because they just plainly don't want to share with males. It's an alternative. When I have my DS with me, it's one I'd welcome. Otherwise, in all cases I'd use single sex facilties, such as these have been left to us.

The trouble is some parents can't bear to take the initative upon themselves to take care of their children's needs without this being at someone else's expense.

This is not a lesson I want my child to learn.

Bottoms up! 🍻